Choreography and its effects on the principles of stance and body mechanics

[Kung Fu Wang]

In kung fu the right side doesn't always repeat the left side.

This is why you should not train form. You should train drills. When you train drills, left side and right side are well balanced.

I like the following drill (in the video). But I don't always do back fist, cross, jab. Sometimes I'll do uppercut, hook, hook. Sometimes I'll do uppercut, overhand, back fist. When I change forms into drills, I'll have more options to train whatever that I like to train.

I may be the person who has trained more forms than everybody in this forum (I have trained more than 50 forms). It's so funny that I don't train forms anymore and I only train drills (for the reason I have just described).

- Left-side and right-side balance.
- Drill is grammar. It can be used to construct many sentences.

When a traditional form taught me the grammar "I love you." It won't stop me from constructing sentences such as:

- I love her.
- You love me.
- She loves me.
- ...

I truly believe this is the correct way to learn MA.

 

[Flying Crane]

I may be the person who has trained more forms than everybody in this forum (I have trained more than 50 forms). It's so funny that I don't train forms anymore and I only train drills (for the reason I have just described).

Nah, I’ve got you beat at somewhere around 70-something. Of course I no longer practice most of them; dumped them off in a muddy ditch along the highway during a blizzard a long time ago. Beat a few of them to death with a crowbar before I left.. Many of them weren’t worth practicing under any circumstances and others were not worth practicing within the context of the direction I was headed in my training. It felt good to lose the baggage.

Some are extremely long, others are very brief, and many are in-between. But that’s a ****-ton of forms although it pales in comparison to the claims of some people. I do not believe it is possible to train that many in any reasonable fashion where it would be beneficial. That is just collecting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is why you should not train form. You should train drills. When you train drills, left side and right side are well balance

I do form from both right and left. Fiirst I train. The right side then I do the form again from the left side instead of the right side.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Nah, I’ve got you beat at somewhere around 70-something.

You win. You are the boss. I'll not brag about myself anymore.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I do form from both right and left. Fiirst I train. The right side then I do the form again from the left side instead of the right side.

Unless a form was designed in such a way that the 1st move sets up the 2nd move (I have not seen such form existed so far). A form contains many sentences. Each sentence has no logical connection at all.

For example, a form may contain 2 sentences:

- I love you.
- This is a book.

Whether you may repeat "I love you. This is a book" 20 times, or you mat repeat "I love you." 20 times, and "This is a book." 20 times. The end result will be the same.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It felt good to lose the baggage.

Agree with you 100% there. Even today, besides body rotation and stance transition, I still don't know the purpose of this arms posture.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I do form from both right and left. Fiirst I train. The right side then I do the form again from the left side instead of the right side.

This is one of those times when I feel bad for Jow Ga Kuen students who never trained things like the full Gung Gi Fuk Fu or Tiger Crane Paired Fist, or other grandfather sets from the southern traditions behind Jow ga.

Technically those two fist sets combined consist of over 400 movements that eventually blend (and considered basic in Hung Ga Kuen), in ambidextrous form, and the whole point is to free the body, physically. Not to learn some rote pattern, but to unlock your agility, move in any direction, etc.

No Korean or Japanese "forms" I've ever seen come close to these older sets, in terms of physical complexity or endurance requirements. That may sound controversial but it's the truth.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Unless a form was designed in such a way that the 1st move sets up the 2nd move (I have not seen such form existed so far). A form contains many sentences. Each sentence has no logical connection at all.

For example, a form may contain 2 sentences:

- I love you.
- This is a book.

Whether you may repeat "I love you. This is a book" 20 times, or you mat repeat "I love you." 20 times, and "This is a book." 20 times. The end result will be the same.

That's an odd thing to say. Every CMA fist set I know is designed that way, techniques leading into each other naturally and gracefully. Northern, southern, doesn't matter.

I've even watched video of you as a younger man, doing fist sets like this, so I'm curious why you think they are not logically connected.

There are even some subsections of certain fist sets that definitely connect techniques together such that they are their own mini fist sets, like the 1,000 Character Fist, the Five Element Fists, the Ten Tigers, etc. In some cases it's no different than standard boxing and wrestling combos, and there's nothing stopping you from taking any one section and drilling it.

Maybe fist sets just aren't your thing, and you prefer feats of skill like the pole hang. I can dig that, but I think you would have gone further had you really mastered a challenging fist set. When I saw your rendition of Hsing Jin online, it seemed like you were just going through the motions.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Agree with you 100% there. Even today, besides body rotation and stance transition, I still don't know the purpose of this arms posture.

It's a very common grappling maneuver in several styles, with different names like Bringing Horse Back to Stable, etc. It's just a way of maintaining balance.

What's the purpose of hanging from a pole? Balance.

 

[marvin8]

Agree with you 100% there. Even today, besides body rotation and stance transition, I still don't know the purpose of this arms posture.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The Chang Hon forms were designed with a goal of training both sides equally. While this is not 100% true, it is in large part.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Unless a form was designed in such a way that the 1st move sets up the 2nd move (I have not seen such form existed so far). A form contains many sentences. Each sentence has no logical connection at all.

For example, a form may contain 2 sentences:

- I love you.
- This is a book.

Whether you may repeat "I love you. This is a book" 20 times, or you mat repeat "I love you." 20 times, and "This is a book." 20 times. The end result will be the same.

The majority. Of the techniques in Jow Ga kung fu are fighting combos single strikes or counters. in the combos the first move sets ups the second. The challenge is to know where the start and where they end.

Kung fu forms are like sentences without periods. The practitioner has to learn where the periods go.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The majority. Of the techniques in Jow Ga kung fu are fighting combos single strikes or counters. in the combos the first move sets ups the second. The challenge is to know where the start and where they end.

Kung fu forms are like sentences without periods. The practitioner has to learn where the periods go.

A lot of the Jow Ga fist sets are mini sets extracted out of the longer sets in Hung and Choi family lines, like the footwork only sets you mentioned that focus on strengthening the stancework.

Did you ever learn the full Tiger Crane Paired Fist? I know it's not found in all Jow Ga schools, mostly because it can take a year+ to learn, and that's after you've mastered the stances and footwork and developed your qi gong.

It is a grueling experience...I was considering making a thread on it. I'm in the process of learning a new family version of it, might make for a cool discussion between us...not sure if anyone else here learned it but it would be a good exposition of this topic.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Did you ever learn the full Tiger Crane Paired Fist? I

I haven’t gotten that far yet. My goal is to learn how to use 50% of what is found in a gorm before moving to the next so my beginning took much longer than most. I hope to continue learning new forms this winter.

 

[skribs]

TKD doesn't either, in most cases. A lot of the lower forms are symmetrical, but none of the Yudanja forms are, really. The designers liked to draw characters on the floor with the footwork, typically something related to the philosophy behind the form.

I don't know about that. Granted, I've only seriously practiced the first four, and dabbled in Sipjin, but I believe there was plenty of symmetry in them.

Koryo repeats left-and-right at the start, and in the middle. Going down and back, many of the techniques are done on both sides.
Keumgang essentially repeats the entire left half of the form on the right side. The first line has most of the techniques repeated on both sides.
Taebaek is another I-shape pattern. The only piece that isn't close to symmetrical is the line coming back.
Pyongwon has a few techniques that aren't exactly repeated (such as the first two techniques), but has a similar symmetry as Keumgang.

Of the Taegeuks, I think less are truly symmetrical in hand techniques than are not. Taegeuks 3 and 6 repeat every hand technique left and right. Every other Taegeuk has something that is a little bit unique to one side. And of course, even 3 and 6 don't have the same exact footwork on both sides.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't know about that. Granted, I've only seriously practiced the first four, and dabbled in Sipjin, but I believe there was plenty of symmetry in them.

Koryo repeats left-and-right at the start, and in the middle. Going down and back, many of the techniques are done on both sides.
Keumgang essentially repeats the entire left half of the form on the right side. The first line has most of the techniques repeated on both sides.
Taebaek is another I-shape pattern. The only piece that isn't close to symmetrical is the line coming back.
Pyongwon has a few techniques that aren't exactly repeated (such as the first two techniques), but has a similar symmetry as Keumgang.

Of the Taegeuks, I think less are truly symmetrical in hand techniques than are not. Taegeuks 3 and 6 repeat every hand technique left and right. Every other Taegeuk has something that is a little bit unique to one side. And of course, even 3 and 6 don't have the same exact footwork on both sides.

The definition of symmetry is being made up of exactly similar parts facing each other or around an axis. Something is either symetrical or it's not. "Most" is not symmetrical. The taegeuk, palgwae, and yudanja forms are designed to train both sides of the body. They are not, by and large, symetrical.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's the purpose of hanging from a pole?

- Solo form (or drill) training is to "polish" MA skill.
- Pole hanging, weight training are to "enhance" MA skill.
- Sparring/wrestling is to "test" MA skill.
- Partner training is to "develop" MA skill.

Solo form training is only 1/4 of the total MA training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kung fu forms are like sentences without periods. The practitioner has to learn where the periods go.

Usually in the form that if you turn around, that is a period. In the following long fist form, you can tell that every time he turns around, it's the end of a certain combo sequence.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As far as the symmetric issue, I don't think the form creator has the responsibility to create it. If you tell me that a table has 4 legs and you send me a picture of one table leg, I should be able to figure out the other 3 table legs.

 

[JowGaWolf]

As far as the symmetric issue, I don't think the form creator has the responsibility to create it. If you tell me that a table has 4 legs and you send me a picture of one table leg, I should be able to figure out the other 3 table legs.

Ironically I gave a one leg table. The other 4 legs don't exist lol.