Fighting Larger People

[Danjo]

I think it's best to work on delivering the most power to the most vulnerable areas. Don't stand toe-to-toe with George Forman, and don't try to out manuever Muhammad Ali.

There is a big difference between a contest between Lesnar and Couture who squared off and both knew each other's strengths etc., and a big dude that jumps you in a bar or alley thinking he's found an easy target.

Most big guys do not have highly developed skill since they have probably gotten by on their size and strength their entire lives. They may have played football etc., but probably have little in the way of formal training. That's not to say they are not tough guys, but we have all seen the ex-footballers that try to go into boxing etc. only to have their clocks cleaned by someone smaller but better trained.

Even if they are decent fighters, they will still be caught off guard by the fact that you are skilled.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Someone who is larger than you has an attribute advantage. However you may have certain attributes that in turn may give you an advantage. ie. speed, etc. The key here is not to be in an attribute advantage domination. In other words when fighting for your life try not to have it all come down to you or your opponents attributes. You can off set size with technical superiority, tool advantage, mind set (think just plain being meaner), angles, etc. Personally I have worked out through the years with some serious giants. Guy's that were either Collegiate athletes or former pro athletes. In an attribute size area I would lose however in general I had more skill and was faster or at least as fast as them. What I tried to do was create a situation where in my skill set had the advantage.

No matter what an individual who is significantly larger than you presents a problem. (we must all be realistic) If you have to engage take care of business quickly and with some sort of advantage on your side.

 

[seasoned]

Hmm..after reading some replies here, and then my OP, I don't think I was as clear as I should've been. Let us assume that the running, the talking, and all of the other stuff that we do, pre-fight, has been done, to no avail. We are forced to fight.

To expand a bit more, I was originally looking at just how we'd apply our art, without a weapon, however, the weapon may be the only saving grace if things are going that bad. I think that in a situation like I describe, dirty fighting is the way to go. And yes, again, I know that doing an eye shot is frowned upon by the courts, having others witness whats going on may work for or against you. I do feel that at times, we could be afraid to do something because we may find ourselves with a few headaches, but if what we're doing isnt having any effect, then we're going to have to up our actions, regardless of what others may think.

In that case the knee is first to go. The big guy will have a lot of weight on that front leg. I prefer a cross stomp with my rear leg in stead of a low side kick. The cross stomp feels more comfortable and can be used very close. I know it is very dangerous to be in close but in GoJu we train that way. Also close gives me my second option which are eyes. I feel knees and eyes are my best option to take the big guy down, after that we stomp him because we don't want him to get up.

 

[John Bishop]

I think I'm correct in assuming that kenpo people use somewhat similar footwork as we do in Kajukenbo. In other words, we like to work in and out at angles, instead of straight in and straight back. Going straight in on a big guy would be like a 150# half back trying to run over a 250# lineman.
Going in at a angle gives you a better shot (kicks) at the side and back of the knees. It also gives you a good shot (punches) at the kidneys and spine. In Kajukenbo we try and enter at a angle to work towards the attackers back. This is done thru stepping patterns, or from executing a strike or block/strike that is hard enough to turn the attacker. Once you've got the attackers back, you attack the kidneys, spine, neck, back of the knee, groin, base of the skull, etc.
Even if you have no desire to learn any grappling moves, you should learn at least 1, the rear naked choke. If applied properly, it will put down the most violent, biggest attacker you can ever encounter. No matter how big, strong, crazy, or drugged up, the attacker is. If he can't breath, he'll pass out.

 

[Rabu]

As a big person, perhaps I can tell you what I find inconvenient.

Numbers. Lots of people are harder to fight. People bigger than myself. People with OC spray or a taser. People who have incredible skill, immense strength.

Sadly, I have never been able, nor willing, to be the bully that apparently my size and over bushy eyebrows would have fit best.

I have found the old addage "the bigger they are the harder they fall" to never be true. I use "the bigger they are the bigger they are".

I have had the opportunity to work with some freakishly big and freakishly strong people. Locks, bars and grappling was always a mistake with these people, extremely hard to work and often simply unsuccesful.

I have found that the person who elevates the conflict to the highest level in the shortest period of time, in advance of their opponent or opponents has the best chance to emerge the least scathed and possibly "victorious". Simple mindset can make a great difference in a fight, street or otherwise. Awareness is different than giving power. Understand that an opponent is larger, perhaps stronger, NEVER give them 'bigger' or 'meaner'.

I also dont hang out in bars, nor do I hang out in MMA cage match arenas talking smack about peoples mom/wife/manhood. I find that with this simple practice, I have greatly reduced the likely attacks by freakishly big and immensely skilled people.

Just a few pennies....

Rob

 

[DavidCC]

As a big person, perhaps I can tell you what I find inconvenient.

Numbers. Lots of people are harder to fight.

So.... you've been "specializing in groups"

 

[DavidCC]

... aiming for vitals is something I'd do. And despite the consequences, if it meant picking up a weapon, I"d do so.

isn't this something you would do anyway?

or

how much bigger does he have to be for you to go to these tactics? is 6'3 big enough? 6'5" ?

and

is there some other attrbute other than "gi-normous" that would get you there? At what point in the altercation will you recognize it, and will it be too late by then?

 

[MJS]

Same thing I would do against anyone. Just adjust for target height zones and his wing-span. IMHO, changing tactics becasue the guy is big means you have already lost in your mind - you have already decided that you cannot survive unless "something special" is done. Your fear is getting the better of you, and that is no way to win.

isn't this something you would do anyway?

Well, yes. I stated that because of your first response, which I added to this post. Maybe I'm reading wrong, but I got the impression that you felt that making any change isn't necessary and would mean that mentally, we've already lost. I disagreed with that, because I feel that not changing is setting us up. Just seems to me that the mentality of some is that the techs. are all cookie cutter and should work against anyone, regardless of any physical differences.

or

how much bigger does he have to be for you to go to these tactics? is 6'3 big enough? 6'5" ?

Well, shouldn't we size up (no pun intended ) our opponent? I was specifically gearing this thread to dealing with large people, however, I would resort to the tactics in question if the person was 5'3 and getting the better of me. My safety and well being is #1 on my list, so despite those that don't want to do something because it may land you in jail, well, if my life is on the line, anyone with an ounce of common sense would see that we resorted to more force because it was necessary.

Your honor, I was in fear for my life. This guy slammed me against the wall, with his hands crushing my throat. I was unable to breathe and the only thing I could do at the time to get him off of me was to poke him in the eye.

So, I'm going to jail for that? Perhaps we should put the person who disagrees in the same situation and see what they'd do.

and

is there some other attrbute other than "gi-normous" that would get you there? At what point in the altercation will you recognize it, and will it be too late by then?

Well, we should try to recognize it asap.

 

[SL4Drew]

So.... you've been "specializing in groups"

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

[Danjo]

isn't this something you would do anyway?

or

how much bigger does he have to be for you to go to these tactics? is 6'3 big enough? 6'5" ?

and

is there some other attrbute other than "gi-normous" that would get you there? At what point in the altercation will you recognize it, and will it be too late by then?

If Ali would have fought George Foreman the same way he fought Joe Frazier, he would have been knocked out in round two. Your toolbox of techniques won't change from person to person, but your strategy and tactics will. In other words, I'm going to deliver a front kick the same way regardless of whom I'm kicking. However, I will probably not try to kick someone that is 6'5" and 265 lbs in the same targets as I would someone that was 5'9" and 165 lbs etc.

 

[KempoGuy06]

Id do the soft target area or chop them down stratagey. Being a big guy myself (6'4" 250") I dont like to spar against smaller people they tend to be quicker and more agile than i am.

B

 

[DavidCC]

If Ali would have fought George Foreman the same way he fought Joe Frazier, he would have been knocked out in round two. Your toolbox of techniques won't change from person to person, but your strategy and tactics will. In other words, I'm going to deliver a front kick the same way regardless of whom I'm kicking. However, I will probably not try to kick someone that is 6'5" and 265 lbs in the same targets as I would someone that was 5'9" and 165 lbs etc.

I think we are on the same page here

 

[Carol]

I like to climb up on their insteps and bite them in the kneecap.

Seriously though...I'm 5'2" so most folks are bigger than me. If my short legs are in kicking range of a larger person, I might be in their punching/grabbing/grappling range. Weapons? I'm not opposed to using them, but unless I have use of a ranged weapon, I'd still be within reach of the bad guy before he's within reach of me and my blade/kubotan/whatever. That's not a pleasant thought.

I avoid being on their centerline. I'm flexible and agile, I'd rather get behind them. They can't hit what they can't see. Once behind them, I have other options such as buckling the knees, or attacking the more vulnerable points that are now within my reach, such as the kidneys or even the neck if I have to go there.

If I had the choice though, I'd rather manouever myself behind the bad dude and execute perhaps my favorite Kenpo technique...Escaping the Thug. :lol:

 

[seasoned]

Low kicks do make big people bend over. The bigger they are the farther they bend. Any hard kick will get a reaction,and a set up for more abuse. A well placed one could give you more time. When I was in the Navy I had a big guy opportunity and used a front kick to the b_ _ _ s.
My mistake was I let him recover and boy was he mad.

 

[OnAQuest]

I believe DanCC said it best.

Size/Strength is an Attribute.

I made an entire post based on Attributes in another thread, I forget the title but you can navigate to it through my profile...I believe it was also titled "Timing"

Being one of those "big guys" you might encounter in a bar, I really think striking first is the key.

I remember this one time when I was about 22 years old....and there was drinking involved at Halloween in a bar. Me and this guy started exchanging words, and I must of been 60lbs heavier than him.

We went outside, and before I could even turn around he socked me in the nose......my eyes were filled with tears....and by the time I could see again he had run off gotten into his car and drove away. :uhyeah:

...Granted now I have at least a little bit of MA experience under my belt, the same tactic would probably not work on me.

But most "big guys" looking for a fight in a bar probably don't have MA experience.

OnAQuest

 

[Bodhisattva]

I was watching the latest UFC with Randy and Brock. Randy is 6'1, 225lbs. Brock is 6'2, 265lbs. For those not familiar with Brock, here is some info from Sherdog. Its obvious that he's a huge man and has some skill.

I try to be aware of my surroundings when I'm out, so there are times, when I'll glance around the area, and my eyes catch someone who is bigger than I am. For the sake of discussion, I'm 5'10, 207lbs. I sometimes think of what I would do to defend myself against a larger person, should I be attacked.

So, this brings me to the question: What would YOU do if you were fighting someone larger than you? I'm not talking about a cage fight, but a SD situation. Aside from picking up a weapon, I'm looking to discuss how you would apply your Ken(m)po, Kajukenbo, etc., on someone such as what I've listed above.

MMA all the way.

On a larger guy who is not mobile, I'm going to work thai kicks and look for knock out shots to the chin while he is over extended.

On a larger guy who is very mobile, I'm going to assess his boxing. If he is obviously better, I'm taking things down. If he is a clumsy, stiff, arm puncher, I'm going to try to stay out of the clinch and work him with a cross.

If he pulls me into the clinch, elbows and headbutts with greco roman and eye gouges.

 

[jasonearle]

I like the comment above to go for the sensory strike to the nose and make their eyes water. unless their nose is made of steel, it should have the effect of making their eyes water. Even going straight for the eyes. They can't hit what they can't see. First off though, I would do everything I could to avoid the fight; walk away, try to talk them down, etc. If I had no other choice then I might as well try to defend myself with all the tools I have been given. Going for the bodies hinges, such as the legs from behind in their danger zone is a good idea. Striking to the areas with less muscle to protect it that can do more damaage, such as the neck, face, spinal area, or pelvic area (even the groin) would be good. I would probably try to parry and redirect so they nobody gets really hurt but they get embarressed or worn out by not being able to hit you.

 

[Danjo]

MMA all the way.

On a larger guy who is not mobile, I'm going to work thai kicks and look for knock out shots to the chin while he is over extended.

On a larger guy who is very mobile, I'm going to assess his boxing. If he is obviously better, I'm taking things down. If he is a clumsy, stiff, arm puncher, I'm going to try to stay out of the clinch and work him with a cross.

If he pulls me into the clinch, elbows and headbutts with greco roman and eye gouges.

If it's a real fight, you won't have time for this type of strategy. If it's a MMA match, then you might.

 

[Gordon Nore]

how much bigger does he have to be for you to go to these tactics? is 6'3 big enough? 6'5" ?

I recommend kicking 'em in the tactics no matter how tall they are.:btg:

 

[Sukerkin]

Rofl :d.