Explaining Kata/Forms to Those Who Don't Do Them

[RTKDCMB]

What is a 'trophy bobble'? a bobble here is usually an elastic band used to tie hair up.

Or an arcade game Bubble Bobble.

Bubble Bobble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If one is so undisciplined mentally that one cannot string a coherent sentence together so that people can understand what you mean I'm surprised you even get 'one dimensional' replies.
What is a 'trophy bobble'? a bobble here is usually an elastic band used to tie hair up.
'coaching crutch needed to step up to TMA' absolutely no idea what that means.

You may think you are far above us in intellect and martial arts skills but sadly you are the only one that thinks this, we don't know how or what to answer you simply because we cannot read what you write. It really is as simple as that. It's English Captain but not as we know it.

I think he meant "bauble", although the rest of his comment is still pretty incoherent.

 

[lklawson]

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I'm not following this.... so just let me add...

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On the dance & shadowboxing... I'd like to add I don't have a problem with TMA student practicing or believing in these within the context of a commercial setting.... Customers should have some flexibility for their personal tastes and & opinions, as well as their personal journey in training.... The danger is you end up a TMA, TKD Black-belt who can perform (non-perform) like the Star in my video....

\
Again... I'm not following... peace...

I'm trying my darndest to be polite but tell you that you're arguing about stuff that wasn't part of what I replied to and wasn't part of the conversation of what the person I replied to wrote, nor what I wrote in reply. Typically this means that the person replying to me (you, in this case) just kinda skimmed the thread and probably had a preconceived notion of what the people were saying but didn't bother to actually find out.

In other words, what the heck are you talking about? Are you just wanting to argue?

You can probably easily figure out what the less polite reply normally is.

 

[lklawson]

Schools like this always have a lot of students so I guess that type of martial arts is what most people want.

And, in the grand scheme, generally aren't causing any true harm.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If someone shows you this move (arm drag, single leg) and you like it, will you add it into your form?

That looks like an arm drag to a double leg, not a single leg.

 

[lklawson]

Which brings us back to the whole question of why we do forms to begin with in TMAs and why aren't they used in competitve martial sports?

<cough>Judo<cough>...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

If one is so undisciplined mentally that one cannot string a coherent sentence together so that people can understand what you mean I'm surprised you even get 'one dimensional' replies.
What is a 'trophy bobble'? a bobble here is usually an elastic band used to tie hair up.

A "bobble" (misspelling) is an attractive yet ultimately low value piece, often used to refer to costume jewelry. In this case a belt-rank which was unearned or a "participation trophy" given to an unskilled participant in a martial arts competition might be referred to as a "bobble."

'coaching crutch needed to step up to TMA'

absolutely no idea what that means.

I'm guessing that he's referring to using belt ranks as a motivation tool by instructors, or possibly by students focusing too heavily on achieving the next belt-grade. But it's hard to tell.

You may think you are far above us in intellect and martial arts skills but sadly you are the only one that thinks this, we don't know how or what to answer you simply because we cannot read what you write. It really is as simple as that. It's English Captain but not as we know it.

I think he just wants to argue and has a lot of preconceived notions which include him being right about everything and everyone else being assumed to be both disagreeing with him and therefore, also, by default, wrong.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[TSDTexan]

As a person who has studied styles with kata and without kata, I still struggle to find the purpose behind kata practice beyond a simple desire to adhere to tradition.

It's to the point where I actively avoid styles that practice kata.

Lol

 

[TSDTexan]

My own experience has been that dancers struggle with martial arts. While the points you cite above are true, they often have difficulty with grounding and root because they train to be light and to float. The body connection is different, they struggle with full body connection in a martial methodology. Of course different types of dance backgrounds may change this, one's mileage may vary.

The dance art has to square with the martial art.
Otherwise you get this..

The art is light on the feet, then the dance style must be as well. Dare I say vice versa.


Root and structure in Linde Hop dance

Root and structure in Judo

And then again you have things like capoeira(sp) which are a dance fighting style hibrid. And Chinese Lion Dancing.


As for floating... Western Boxing has both rooted and floating artists. Boxing is rife with dance parallels. In boxing we find boxers, coaches and trainers using terms like "beat","on the off beat","tempo" and rhythm. Boxing didn't have to create new terms but simply appropriate musical/dancing terms for itself.

I found it to be true in western boxing, there is an unconscious habit that I find myself and other boxers doing. Synchronized hopping. A common enough thing to find. Boxers on the bounce for mobility and to engage footwork for defensive or mounting an offense.
Eventually they begin to hop on the same beat.

Boxers dance.
Some float like a butterfly and sting like a bee

 

[tshadowchaser]

. if one is so undisciplined mentally that a trophy-bobble is what you care about, then how much of a coaching cr

I have tried to stay open minded about much of what has been posted in this thread but I must ask:

What the Hell are you talking about. Do you even know what your saying?

 

[Flying Crane]

The dance art has to square with the martial art.
Otherwise you get this..

The art is light on the feet, then the dance style must be as well. Dare I say vice versa.


Root and structure in Linde Hop dance

Root and structure in Judo

And then again you have things like capoeira(sp) which are a dance fighting style hibrid. And Chinese Lion Dancing.


As for floating... Western Boxing has both rooted and floating artists. Boxing is rife with dance parallels. In boxing we find boxers, coaches and trainers using terms like "beat","on the off beat","tempo" and rhythm. Boxing didn't have to create new terms but simply appropriate musical/dancing terms for itself.

I found it to be true in western boxing, there is an unconscious habit that I find myself and other boxers doing. Synchronized hopping. A common enough thing to find. Boxers on the bounce for mobility and to engage footwork for defensive or mounting an offense.
Eventually they begin to hop on the same beat.

Boxers dance.
Some float like a butterfly and sting like a bee

That's a pretty funny video.

Regarding your comment about capoeira, do not make the common mistake of describing it as a dance/fight style hybrid. It is definitely not. There are cultural influences that lead to the inclusion of music and rhythm, but it most definitely is not dance. It has always been a fighting method. I spent a number of years training it obsessively, so I do have some direct and practical experience with it. I just try to steer people in the right direction when it comes to this.

 

[geezer]

If one is so undisciplined mentally that one cannot string a coherent sentence together so that people can understand what you mean I'm surprised you even get 'one dimensional' replies.
...What is a 'trophy bobble'? a bobble here is usually an elastic band used to tie hair up.

I can help you with that one, Tez. He means "bauble":

bauble | an inexpensive piece of jewelry

Now, if only the problems I have in deciphering Shoto's posts were all just a matter of occasional typos or regional usage. That's easy to get past. It's the mixed metaphors and gaping chasms in his train of thought that confound me. Heck, some of those gaps make the Grand Canyon look small. I mean I live in Arizona and have hiked across it successfully. Can't say the same regarding some of Shoto's posts!

 

[JowGaWolf]

The dance art has to square with the martial art.
Otherwise you get this..

The art is light on the feet, then the dance style must be as well. Dare I say vice versa.


Root and structure in Linde Hop dance

Root and structure in Judo

And then again you have things like capoeira(sp) which are a dance fighting style hibrid. And Chinese Lion Dancing.


As for floating... Western Boxing has both rooted and floating artists. Boxing is rife with dance parallels. In boxing we find boxers, coaches and trainers using terms like "beat","on the off beat","tempo" and rhythm. Boxing didn't have to create new terms but simply appropriate musical/dancing terms for itself.

I found it to be true in western boxing, there is an unconscious habit that I find myself and other boxers doing. Synchronized hopping. A common enough thing to find. Boxers on the bounce for mobility and to engage footwork for defensive or mounting an offense.
Eventually they begin to hop on the same beat.

Boxers dance.
Some float like a butterfly and sting like a bee

Traditional lion dancing really isn't dancing. It's like a continuous stance training exercise that goes on for 10 minutes or more. A lot of the footwork that's in traditional lion dance can be found in actual fighting techniques in fighting system. In terms of physical demand, balance, and leg strength. Lion dancing is harder than Kung fu.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As a person who has studied styles with kata and without kata, I still struggle to find the purpose behind kata practice beyond a simple desire to adhere to tradition.

It's to the point where I actively avoid styles that practice kata.

I feel about the same way too. I have learned many forms. I have also created 3 new forms myself. Today if I want to train solo at home, I just pick up 20 combo drills and drill each combo drills 20 times instead.

Those drills are not in any forms that I have learned. For example combo drills such as:

- arm drag, single leg, inner hook,
- leg seize, reverse leg seize, forward kick,
- leg seize, twist and spring, outer bowing,
- leg twist, leg lift, leg block, outer twist,
- ...

I feel it's time for me to dig into the "combo - use one move to set up next move" level instead of just the "form" level.

 

[lklawson]

As for floating... Western Boxing has both rooted and floating artists. Boxing is rife with dance parallels. In boxing we find boxers, coaches and trainers using terms like "beat","on the off beat","tempo" and rhythm. Boxing didn't have to create new terms but simply appropriate musical/dancing terms for itself.

Coincidentally, Fencing and related weapons disciplines from western culture use the same terminology.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[geezer]

I feel about the same way too. I have learned many forms. I have also created 3 new forms myself. Today if I want to train solo at home, I just pick up 20 combo drills and drill each combo drills 20 times instead.

Sounds like a productive way to train.

One of the things I like about WC is that the forms are concise and few. They serve multiple purposes, but lately I've been using Siu Nim Tau almost like an outline, or a table of contents for a large textbook. Each section can be read like a chapter heading, reminding me of innumerable drills and training sequence that can be used to develop various practice attributes of the system.

So as long as I carry the form or outline with me, I have the key to an endless number of drills that relate to the structures and energies of any given section of the form. For practical purposes, I spend far more time doing these kinds of exercises and drill than the form itself.

Some might see this as a way in which non-literate or marginally literate practitioners in earlier times could codify and keep track of their system. I find it equally valuable today. You can't be looking at your phone for answers all the time, ya know!

 

[TSDTexan]

my old...Sifu pointed out the diverse applications..
.found in the WC forms... beyond what you could...see in the forms, although once explained and mastered, you could easily feel these potential applications.

Geezer... you are speaking genus stuff here.

proprioception. (prō'prē-ō-sěp'shən) The unconscious perception of movement and spatial orientation arising from stimuli within the body itself. In humans, these stimuli are detected by nerves within the body itself, as well as by the semicircular canals of the inner ear.

Once someone learns to hear their body speaking to them.
The voice gets louder and easier to hear.
Visual pattern recognition is hardwired into the brain. A week old child can register different faces between known and unknown.

However the 6th sense of body awareness is also hardwired but very undeveloped. Once a person has finally developed "it" the patern reconstruction and recognition systems of the brain can engage and begin to analyze the data the body is telling it.

Eventually as your body performance teaches your brain, on an unconcious level, an occasional "pattern match" triggers memory of associated movements and you begin to develop gut feeling or hunches.

You feel the applications.


There is a thing called the cortical humunculus. It is an internal map of the body within the cortex. Two actually. One handles motor function & the handles sense data.

Here is a visual map showing, by scale, how much of a given body part is represented in the cortex, with regard to senses and motor control movement.

It is interesting to note... this is able to be learned or programmed.

A person who has had a loss of both hands can learn to do a mind boggling amount of tasks with their feet. Like playing a guitar!

The feet of such an individual have an amazing amount of synaptic connection wrt their feet in the cortex

 

[RTKDCMB]

Here is a visual map showing, by scale, how much of a given body part is represented in the cortex, with regard to senses and motor control movement.

That picture reminds me of the picture that shows the body parts sized according to their sensitivity..
http://i.imgur.com/ewtvoWM.jpeg

 

[TSDTexan]

That picture reminds me of the picture that shows the body parts sized according to their sensitivity..
http://i.imgur.com/ewtvoWM.jpeg

Yep the cortex had two cortical homunculi. 1st. Is nerve input which increases with practiced awareness. 2nd. Is motor controls both voluntary and involuntary.

I chose a image that was less than perfect in anatomical correctness with regard to reproductive anatomy to stay in complete with forum TOS.

The greater one learns to control the body, the more the two models will look like each other.

Which kata helps in developing body awareness if one has an instructor with the requisite skillset.

 

[TSDTexan]

@Zack Cart

E V E R Y M O V E M E N T has meaning.

Combative Application of the Salutation as taught by this hanshi in following video by

I found this gem last night before bed. I'm happy he used the phrase term mnemonic in his video. For me it is Cosmic irony, local humility.