Explaining Kata/Forms to Those Who Don't Do Them

[JowGaWolf]

@Zack Cart

E V E R Y M O V E M E N T has meaning.

Combative Application of the Salutation as taught by this hanshi in following video by

I found this gem last night before bed. I'm happy he used the phrase term mnemonic in his video. For me it is Cosmic irony, local humility.

Way too complex for me. I'm glad my salutes are put into three categories. 1. I'm here in peace I do not want to fight, 2. A bow of equality. we may fight. 3. A bow of aggression meaning that we are about to fight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is no form/Kata on earth that you can learn the "leg shooting counter" as shown at 0.30. The form/Kata just doesn't record every MA skills.

 

[Tez3]

There is no form/Kata on earth that you can learn the "leg shooting counter" as shown at 0.30. The form/Kata just doesn't record every MA skills.

Do you think then that kata should 'record' every single technique a martial arts style has? What are your thoughts on Bunkai then?

 

[lklawson]

Do you think then that kata should 'record' every single technique a martial arts style has? What are your thoughts on Bunkai then?

It would certainly be a powerful argument in support of the "kata as a technique library" thesis.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tez3]

It would certainly be a powerful argument in support of the "kata as a technique library" thesis.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Very difficult to use kata though if every single technique and all their variations were to be recorded!

While kata may be a 'technique library' for some, for many other's it's not so assuming every single move should be in every single styles kata is unrealistic as well as just incorrect. To keep saying why isn't this technique in kata, why isn't that technique in kata is pointless, it may well be in someone's kata, it may well be left to the practitioner to work out or it may not even be a technique used in a particular style.
I don't think kata's are for learning techniques from however you think of kata, so if the 'leg shooting' move is in a kata, you would surely learn it first anyway.

 

[donald1]

IMO, I see no point in doing so. Most of the people I see don't practice forms or any ma really. I usually will not discuss topics with a person who has no interest in what I'm talking about.

 

[Tez3]

IMO, I see no point in doing so. Most of the people I see don't practice forms or any ma really. I usually will not discuss topics with a person who has no interest in what I'm talking about.

The assumption in the question really is how you would explain it 'if they asked', it's also a politer way to phrase the question 'what do you think kata is'. It's politer because the OP wants a discussion not an argument.

 

[lklawson]

Very difficult to use kata though if every single technique and all their variations were to be recorded!

While kata may be a 'technique library' for some, for many other's it's not so assuming every single move should be in every single styles kata is unrealistic as well as just incorrect. To keep saying why isn't this technique in kata, why isn't that technique in kata is pointless, it may well be in someone's kata, it may well be left to the practitioner to work out or it may not even be a technique used in a particular style.
I don't think kata's are for learning techniques from however you think of kata, so if the 'leg shooting' move is in a kata, you would surely learn it first anyway.

The absence of any given technique in the kata of a system but which is within the curriculum of the system does not, by default, invalidate the thesis that kata is a library of techniques. However, the presence of all of the system's techniques within the system's body of kata would, as I stated, be a powerful argument in the "kata as a library of techniques" thesis.

This, again, goes to my position that kata is many different things to different people and different systems. I have several friends who practice Silat. They tell me that there are countless discrete and independent "village styles" of Silat. Many of these, apparently, are represented, in entirety, by a single form/kata which the village practices. From what I can tell, to them, the form IS the system, inclusive.

And yet, in this thread alone, we've had 4-6 different descriptions of what kata "really is." My conclusion is that "they're all right." Kata can be any number of different things from teaching core principles, through choreography of a fight, to being a library of techniques. Kata is represented by a set [a..z] in which nearly every potential description is represented.

There is no wrong answer. Kata is a Rorschach blot.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[TSDTexan]

The absence of any given technique in the kata of a system but which is within the curriculum of the system does not, by default, invalidate the thesis that kata is a library of techniques. However, the presence of all of the system's techniques within the system's body of kata would, as I stated, be a powerful argument in the "kata as a library of techniques" thesis.

This, again, goes to my position that kata is many different things to different people and different systems. I have several friends who practice Silat. They tell me that there are countless discrete and independent "village styles" of Silat. Many of these, apparently, are represented, in entirety, by a single form/kata which the village practices. From what I can tell, to them, the form IS the system, inclusive.

And yet, in this thread alone, we've had 4-6 different descriptions of what kata "really is." My conclusion is that "they're all right." Kata can be any number of different things from teaching core principles, through choreography of a fight, to being a library of techniques. Kata is represented by a set [a..z] in which nearly every potential description is represented.

There is no wrong answer. Kata is a Rorschach blot.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Bah. Its so much more then a blot test.
In the blot, a viewer projects meaning unto an image of randomized shape.

The meaning of kata's movements were by design meaningful. The problem is the opposite. People are projecting meaninglessness upon it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I truly believe that people find what they want to find within kata/forms.

If they believe they are meaningless, then that is true for them.
If they believe they are a catalog of techniques and thus limited...
If they believe they are tools to teach basic movements...
If they believe they contain the core and basis of martial arts, to be developed by mindful repetition over time...

 

[TSDTexan]

I truly believe that people find what they want to find within kata/forms.

If they believe they are meaningless, then that is true for them.
If they believe they are a catalog of techniques and thus limited...
If they believe they are tools to teach basic movements...
If they believe they contain the core and basis of martial arts, to be developed by mindful repetition over time...

Then you believe kata is subjective.

I could be wrong but I think if we could go back in time, and had access.... if we asked every kata creator in Okinawa
If kata had meaning in and of itself or if the only thing to be found within kata was what the performer of the kata brought with him or her...we might see many old masters holding a view that kata is objective.

Perhaps very objective.

I hold to a position that kata is pretty flexible in some things, and inflexible in others. Kata is never without meaning, even if popular opinion of 7 billion humans were to change their mind and say it doesn't now, and it never has had meaning.

Facts don't change by popular demand. If they could, they wouldn't be facts... right?

So it could well be for someone that they go into kata practice and come away believing kata is meaningless, and for them it is subjectively true, it doesn't change the objective reality that kata in iteslf is meaningful.

 

[Balrog]

IMNSHO, forms are an excellent way to practice timing, focus, correct execution of technique, balance, etc. They make us strive to improve ourselves in all those ways and more, so that we are continually practicing to overcome our worst opponent - ourselves.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Then you believe kata is subjective.

Not at all. I merely note that people who want to believe X about kata, will find X to be true. Those who wish to believe Y will find Y. In other words, people change the circumstances so that their conclusions support their beliefs. It's natural. I didn't say it was right.

I could be wrong but I think if we could go back in time, and had access.... if we asked every kata creator in Okinawa
If kata had meaning in and of itself or if the only thing to be found within kata was what the performer of the kata brought with him or her...we might see many old masters holding a view that kata is objective.

Perhaps very objective.

Perhaps.

I hold to a position that kata is pretty flexible in some things, and inflexible in others. Kata is never without meaning, even if popular opinion of 7 billion humans were to change their mind and say it doesn't now, and it never has had meaning.

I agree.

Facts don't change by popular demand. If they could, they wouldn't be facts... right?

Quite right. However, we humans have different notions of what the 'facts' are. The fact itself, if it is indeed a fact, cannot be changed by their alternate beliefs. But it doesn't stop them from believing something other than the truth. Humans are funny.

So it could well be for someone that they go into kata practice and come away believing kata is meaningless, and for them it is subjectively true, it doesn't change the objective reality that kata in iteslf is meaningful.

Again, I agree. So there is indeed subjective truth - for the individual - and objective truth - which cannot be altered because someone believes X, Y, or Z about the kata. It also doesn't mean that *my* understanding of kata is the correct one. That gets perilously close to religion.

 

[lklawson]

if we asked every kata creator in Okinawa

...we could ask him what the Chinese guy who he learned from said that forms were for?



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I hold to a position that kata is pretty flexible in some things, and inflexible in others. Kata is never without meaning, even if popular opinion of 7 billion humans were to change their mind and say it doesn't now, and it never has had meaning.

Facts don't change by popular demand. If they could, they wouldn't be facts... right?

So it could well be for someone that they go into kata practice and come away believing kata is meaningless, and for them it is subjectively true, it doesn't change the objective reality that kata in iteslf is meaningful.

Well ... meaning is always subjective. Absent some conscious, subjective observer, things do not have an inherent objective meaning. They just are. A rock just is. An apple just is. A star just is. Even an original manuscript of sheet music written by Mozart just is.

All these things have meaning only in that they are meaningful to someone. That apple means one thing to a starving man. It means something else to a junk food addict starting a new diet. The Mozart sheet music meant one thing to Mozart. It means another thing to a modern student of classical music. It means another thing to a librarian specializing in preservation of historical documents. It means another thing to a Britney Spears fan.

A given kata may have had a specific meaning intended by whoever originally designed it (although in many cases we have no way of knowing for sure what that intended meaning was). That original intended meaning may not be the same meaning it had to the various people who altered it as the kata evolved over generations. It may or may not correspond to any of the various meanings that it has to the thousands of people who practice it today. All those meanings are subjective. None of them are objective.

 

[Dirty Dog]

IMNSHO, forms are an excellent way to practice timing, focus, correct execution of technique, balance, etc.

Agreed.

They make us strive to improve ourselves in all those ways and more, so that we are continually practicing to overcome our worst opponent - ourselves.

No, not so much. People who strive to improve themselves do so because that's one of their personality traits. They'd do the same thing if they practiced without forms.

 

[Tez3]

I imagine if we could go back to those who came up with the first katas they'd actually be shaking their heads at all the talk and be saying 'why aren't you training'

 

[Koshiki]

The Mozart sheet music meant one thing to Mozart. It means another thing to a modern student of classical music. It means another thing to a librarian specializing in preservation of historical documents. It means another thing to a Britney Spears fan.

It's worth noting that, while modern students of classical music may study in depth the work of Mozart, many of the same pieces we study were not held to be of particular import back in the day. When Mozart wrote "Eine Kleine Nachtmusik," it was basically a background music pop-tune, designed to be inoffensive, and to blend in with the potted plants. Now people listen to it a staple of popular classical music and try to derive deep meaning.

Can the casual listener derive great enjoyment from Mozart's "Little bit of Evening Music"? Yes. Can the music devotee find deep meaning in the music? Of course!

Most importantly, can the student of music learn a great many important lessons from the formal structure, harmonic progression, melodic contours, etc? Why yes, yes indeed.

But Mozart didn't think it was anything special. I suspect he was more emotionally involved in his six part vocal canon, "Leck mich im Arsch."

There may be parallels between the progression of perceived worth as augmented by the weight of history in both music and kata...

 

[TSDTexan]

I imagine if we could go back to those who came up with the first katas they'd actually be shaking their heads at all the talk and be saying 'why aren't you training'

The irony of your point is that you have made it in a forum of talk but the content offered by you is paraphrased and echoed by the popular expression "Shut up and train".


But Motobu Choki makes it clear that someone who just trains and doesnt party and socialize has flavorless kata and art.*

I suspect that the response offered would depend on the time and place the question was asked.

I know that I wouldn't be asking the master's while class was "in session" but more after class, perhaps on the way to a pub-ish place for a drink.


*
"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art (karate) of someone who is too serious has no flavour."-Choki Motobu

 

[Dirty Dog]

"It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art (karate) of someone who is too serious has no flavour."-Choki Motobu

Necessary? Really? So you can't be a Karateka unless you drink alcohol?
The only people for whom it is "Necessary to drink alcohol" are alcoholics.

Pursuing other fun activities I agree with.