"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

[Gerry Seymour]

I am sorry but I can't take in to account the evidence I can't see.

You’ve asserted they don’t use evidence. That’s very different from not having seen it, yourself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It works in the streets is cried by every TMAer in the world.

You know, your usual reply to that is something like “so it worked once for one guy?” So now someone is talking about something that is actually put to use in a regular basis by many individuals, and that’s the same thing to you??

Man, your logic circuit is fried.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We get guys full contact fighting MMA in 12 weeks pretty much full time training.

That is what I would consider the least amount of training that an ethical instructor would provide before engaging in a full contact fight.

2 weeks is setting up people to get hurt.

The instructors, in this case, do not get to make that decision.

 

[drop bear]

The instructors, in this case, do not get to make that decision.

I am not trying to fix DT. There are a whole bunch of reasons it is unfixable.

I am saying do a system that doesn't have those problems.

I mean you have to do DT anyway so it isn't really a competition. But to get functional skills you need a functional system. Or you are quite simply more likely to get your head kicked in.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Let me see what I have from you guys so far.

We have a piecemeal system focused on covering department liability. Decided by council and state government.

Now the test of effectiveness of this system is that police can operate effectively. But these are the same police who may only do about 2 weeks training. And are still considered effective.

Have I missed anything?

Yes, you have. Talking about DT as a single thing is like saying something about martial arts (with the inclusive definition that encompasses Asian arts and western arts, sport and non-sport). DT is a blanket term that encompasses not a piecemeal system, but a bunch of systems.

You’re being pigheaded. You can debate on better information and from a better position.

 

[drop bear]

You know, your usual reply to that is something like “so it worked once for one guy?” So now someone is talking about something that is actually put to use in a regular basis by many individuals, and that’s the same thing to you??

Man, your logic circuit is fried.

When a police officer actually fights a guy. It looks a lot more like wrestling than DT.

When a BJJ police officer actually fights a guy. It looks like BJJ.

If a police officer is handcuffing a semi resisting guy. Yeah? DT will come out.

The Cops use DT successfully every day isn't exactly as true as it is being made to sound.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, you have. Talking about DT as a single thing is like saying something about martial arts (with the inclusive definition that encompasses Asian arts and western arts, sport and non-sport). DT is a blanket term that encompasses not a piecemeal system, but a bunch of systems.

You’re being pigheaded. You can debate on better information and from a better position.

And I am happy to see evidence of individual systems being any good. To separate them from the bad systems.

Otherwise DT can't be recommended as a training method because nobody really has an idea what they will get.

 

[drop bear]

You’ve asserted they don’t use evidence. That’s very different from not having seen it, yourself.

It isn't very different. It is the same as all the street stories that we just never happen to hear about

 

[drop bear]

Do you truly not see the contradiction in believing that your experience should count as 'proof' but that of others doesn't?

Well there is no proof of DT working at all so far.

I mean if this was a straight up BJJ vs DT evidence fest. BJJ would have won this thread by post 2.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well there is no proof of DT working at all so far.

Except for the hundreds of thousands of US police officers who somehow manage to subdue bad guys every single day.
For every cop I see in the ER, I see at least 20 bad guys. That's a pretty good success rate. One of our kids is a cop. He's been involved in at least a half dozen use of force events in the past year (that's just the ones he's told me about). He's come out on top in each one.

Oh yeah. Nobodies experience counts. Except yours, of course.
#facepalm

 

[drop bear]

Except for the hundreds of thousands of US police officers who somehow manage to subdue bad guys every single day.
For every cop I see in the ER, I see at least 20 bad guys. That's a pretty good success rate. One of our kids is a cop. He's been involved in at least a half dozen use of force events in the past year (that's just the ones he's told me about). He's come out on top in each one.

Oh yeah. Nobodies experience counts. Except yours, of course.
#facepalm

So this two week program that let's hundreds of thousands of cops subdue bad guys must be pretty impressive then.

 

[ballen0351]

I am not trying to fix DT. There are a whole bunch of reasons it is unfixable.

Yet you have never done it, claim you have never seen it, and by your posts obviously have no actual knowledge of it.

I am saying do a system that doesn't have those problems.

Wow you invented the perfect system for law enforcement with no problems PLEASE tell me what that is.

I mean you have to do DT anyway so it isn't really a competition. But to get functional skills you need a functional system. Or you are quite simply more likely to get your head kicked in.

Except the stats on use of force encounters show your opinion is wrong...

 

[lklawson]

Yeah look this is the same conversation I had with king fu guys and ground work. For exactly the same reason. "You don't understand the principles of king fu. And the street is different".

No. Because it's not. Because, you haven't seen ANY of it. There is different DT for every department pretty much, and it changes on a regular basis, and you haven't actually seen any of it. You're just speculating and talking out of your hind end. You are, literally, giving your opinion from a perspective of complete ignorance and supposition. You, quite literally, do not know what is, or is not, being taught at any given department, never mind all of them combined, yet your are giving your 100% uninformed opinion on something you have never even seen.

I'm not sure if you're just a narcissistic egomaniac, trolling this thread, or both.

 

[lklawson]

What we have is a legend in his own mind who doesn’t know what he is talking about and is just making assumptions.

I regret that I can not "like" and "agree" with this post, but must choose one or the other.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I am not trying to fix DT. There are a whole bunch of reasons it is unfixable.

How would you know? You haven't actually seen any of it, never mind worked with any.

 

[Hanzou]

I love this thread.

 

[Buka]

I love this thread.

And a tip of the hat to you for starting it, mate.

 

[drop bear]

No. Because it's not. Because, you haven't seen ANY of it. There is different DT for every department pretty much, and it changes on a regular basis, and you haven't actually seen any of it. You're just speculating and talking out of your hind end. You are, literally, giving your opinion from a perspective of complete ignorance and supposition. You, quite literally, do not know what is, or is not, being taught at any given department, never mind all of them combined, yet your are giving your 100% uninformed opinion on something you have never even seen.

I'm not sure if you're just a narcissistic egomaniac, trolling this thread, or both.

I am not sure how saying that a system with no consistency is a defense of that system.

Especially when the argument for DT is that cops arrest criminals so it must work.

So there are a whole bunch of different systems. And they change. And they all produce the same result. Which is cops go out and arrest people.

If we have a bunch of different methods and they are producing the same result. Are those methods doing anything at all?

I would recommend a system I have seen work over a system I have not seen work. And nobody can show me it works.

And when it comes to ego or self interest then you can look elsewhere.

Mabye even at the people who can't even produce a system to critique. Who hide behind their own authority and are benefiting from teaching systems at the cost of other people's health.


Because when it comes to professional violence results matter. Being able to fight gets you home safer. And the individual persons safety is my most important concern.

2 weeks of training and then pushing someone in to any fight using any system is already gross negligence. Let alone using these untested and unknown methods. This shows a disdain for the job they expect someone to do.

It quite simply amazes me police manage to succeed when they have been set up to fail.

It is not an American issue. Police here have the same problems. It is not even just a police issue. I had the same problems.

And it is an infuriating brick wall of self interest at the cost of the individuals health and safety.

And then we have BJJ.
Done by police officers out of their own personal choice. Provides open discourse on techniques and tactics. Is actually seen working in real life situations. Provides on going training. Is driven by the needs of officers themselves. And is accountable. And they actually have a system to critique.

Results matter. Good training is important.

 

[ballen0351]

[

Because when it comes to professional violence results matter. Being able to fight gets you home safer. And the individual persons safety is my most important concern.

Results matter is correct. Millions of arrest a year, hundreds of thousands of resisting arrest charges a year and 5 Officers died last year from assaults. 5 out of 1,000,000. Pretty good results. And the 5 were all correction guards and I have no idea what they learn

2 weeks of training and then pushing someone in to any fight using any system is already gross negligence. Let alone using these untested and unknown methods.

Excpet it is tested and the methods are known....just not to you.

It quite simply amazes me police manage to succeed when they have been set up to fail.

Guess the training works

 

[drop bear]

[

Results matter is correct. Millions of arrest a year, hundreds of thousands of resisting arrest charges a year and 6 Officers died last year from assaults. 6 out of 1,000,000. Pretty good results.

Excpet it is tested and the methods are known....just not to you.


Guess the training works

Or we are missing some major pieces of the puzzle.

For me I would need a lot more convincing than your say so to believe you have essentially solved the martial arts issue that there are no short cuts to winning fights.