So Germans just woke up one fine morning and just decided to exterminate the Jews? Are you trying to contend that Hitler's, יש"ו, rethoric had nothing to do with it? Thoughts and speech certainly did it.
Europe and freedom, not getting it...
- Thread starter billc
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So Germans just woke up one fine morning and just decided to exterminate the Jews? Are you trying to contend that Hitler's, יש"ו, rethoric had nothing to do with it? Thoughts and speech certainly did it.
OP
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The horrors that Europe went through at the hands of the various socialist movements from 1917 onwards, had one thing in common, they all silenced speech against the government. Allowing the nut jobs to speak out in public let's them vent their stupid ideas, and keeps a good part of them from being forced underground where you can't see them. Another thing, we let the nut jobs speak here, they get to vent and the rest of the country gets to see how stupid their ideas are, and then they move on with their lives. Seeing national socialists sitting out in public surrounded by more people who are protesting them tends to put a krimp in their popularity.
By limiting speech you don't like, you are simply planting the first seed of the next problem down the road.
Why do I talk about Europe so much? Mainly because there are a lot of politicians on the left here in the states who love all of the things Europe does. They love the national healthcare, the government transportation system, the surveillance cameras, and the limits on free speech. They love the gun control. They love the high taxes on everything and especially on gas. The real problem for me is that these lefty politicians want to bring all that stuff over here. You even have supreme court justices who believe they should look at European laws to justify their unconstitutional decisions here. That is why I post a lot about what I see wrong with Europe, I don't want it to get traction here.
By limiting speech you don't like, you are simply planting the first seed of the next problem down the road.
Why do I talk about Europe so much? Mainly because there are a lot of politicians on the left here in the states who love all of the things Europe does. They love the national healthcare, the government transportation system, the surveillance cameras, and the limits on free speech. They love the gun control. They love the high taxes on everything and especially on gas. The real problem for me is that these lefty politicians want to bring all that stuff over here. You even have supreme court justices who believe they should look at European laws to justify their unconstitutional decisions here. That is why I post a lot about what I see wrong with Europe, I don't want it to get traction here.
Bili what you spout is complete and utter bollocks mate. You are making a reach when you say the unions are killing people, the terrorists are communists not socialist and yes there is a big difference.
However you are speaking the truth when you say your country lets the nutjobs vent so everyone can see how stupid they are, well done on demonstrating that.
You see things in such a simple way it proves you don't actually have any idea what European history or it's current situation is really like. You post merely so you can prove how superior yo think America is to the rest of us. How do you know what the laws are in 50 odd countries, you have no idea what the gun laws are in Andorra, or the unions policies in San Merino, or how Iceland legislates, you don't know what the people in the Ukraine have a as health policy. Do you know who is in control in the Isle of Man or Cyprus or Moldova? How can you say you know what is wrong in Europe? that's just nonsense. You are merely spouting right wing propaganda and trying to make what you think fit in other countries. Do you know how many countries are consevative or socialist, how many are constitutional monarachies or outright monachies? The Vatican is a state in Europe do you imagine they are socialist and left wing? My dear chap your ignorance of Eruopean affairs is obvious and you're lauding of averything American is so loud you are giving Americans a bad name for lack of tolerance, bigotry and sheer ignorance, rant away but don't expect to be taken seriously.
However you are speaking the truth when you say your country lets the nutjobs vent so everyone can see how stupid they are, well done on demonstrating that.
You see things in such a simple way it proves you don't actually have any idea what European history or it's current situation is really like. You post merely so you can prove how superior yo think America is to the rest of us. How do you know what the laws are in 50 odd countries, you have no idea what the gun laws are in Andorra, or the unions policies in San Merino, or how Iceland legislates, you don't know what the people in the Ukraine have a as health policy. Do you know who is in control in the Isle of Man or Cyprus or Moldova? How can you say you know what is wrong in Europe? that's just nonsense. You are merely spouting right wing propaganda and trying to make what you think fit in other countries. Do you know how many countries are consevative or socialist, how many are constitutional monarachies or outright monachies? The Vatican is a state in Europe do you imagine they are socialist and left wing? My dear chap your ignorance of Eruopean affairs is obvious and you're lauding of averything American is so loud you are giving Americans a bad name for lack of tolerance, bigotry and sheer ignorance, rant away but don't expect to be taken seriously.
You really need to research into the rise of the Nazis if you think this. Why do you think the people 'chose' to?
http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/timeline/nazirise.htm
"The German Workers' Party
, the forerunner of the Nazi Party, espoused a right-wing ideology, like many similar groups of demobilized soldiers. Adolf Hitler joined this small political party in 1919 and rose to leadership through his emotional and captivating speeches. He encouraged national pride, militarism, and a commitment to the Volk
and a racially "pure" Germany. Hitler condemned the Jews, exploiting antisemitic feelings that had prevailed in Europe for centuries. He changed the name of the party to the National Socialist German Workers' Party, called for short, the Nazi Party (or NSDAP)
. By the end of 1920, the Nazi Party had about 3,000 members. A year later Hitler became its official leader, or Führer." ballen0351
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Yes hitler was evil and gave great speeches. He did bad things.
martin luther king jr also gave great speeches and did great things. You must take the good with the bad. You can't silence one without the other. You can only hope people are smart enough to see the difference. But as shown throughout history you can't legislate intelligence
martin luther king jr also gave great speeches and did great things. You must take the good with the bad. You can't silence one without the other. You can only hope people are smart enough to see the difference. But as shown throughout history you can't legislate intelligence
My spelling isn't that good after a long night shift lol, I can see the spelling errors and it's too late to edit. Oh well never mind.
My point is still the same...how can you criticise 'European politics' when there is no such thing, how can you say there's things wrong with or compare American politics to something that doesn't exist? It's as nonsensical as me saying I won't go to Amercia because I don't like American weather, you'd go 'what?'
Politics in Europe is as diverse as it's cultures and there are many even in individual countries. there's the Sami in the north of Scandinavia, the Basques in the Pyrenees, the Provencal, Normans, Bretons in France, the Turkish Cypriots, the Maltese, Serbs, Monegasques, Roma, Latvians, Germans, Swiss, Greeks, Montenigrans, Icelanders, etc etc etc. Each has it's concerns and it's politics, we have political views from the extreme right to the extreme left and everything in between and then some. We have countries with healthcare and those where you have to pay insurance as in America, we have countries that are conservative and those that are liberal, we have socialist countries and probably the most conservative country in the world..the Vatican.. We have countries that are so poor they can afford very little in the way of anything and others that are very rich and have a very high standard of living. Some countries are very religious like Malta others like Cyprus are divided and have two governments. There is such a variety of poiltical viewpoints, governments and ways of running a country that it's incorrect to use the words 'European politics' as if it were all the same everywhere.
If we are going with healthcare though perhaps our system isn't the worst and comparison to yours are actually favourable for the UK as one of six European countries that do better than the US. The other countries that do better than the US being Canada, Austraila and Japan.
"Direct comparisons of health statistics across nations are complex. The Commonwealth Fund, in its annual survey, "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall", compares the performance of the health care systems in Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Germany, Canada and the U.S. Its 2007 study found that, although the U.S. system is the most expensive, it consistently underperforms compared to the other countries.[SUP][16][/SUP] A major difference between the U.S. and the other countries in the study is that the U.S. is the only country without universal health care. The OECD also collects comparative statistics, and has published brief country profiles"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_systems
My point is still the same...how can you criticise 'European politics' when there is no such thing, how can you say there's things wrong with or compare American politics to something that doesn't exist? It's as nonsensical as me saying I won't go to Amercia because I don't like American weather, you'd go 'what?'
Politics in Europe is as diverse as it's cultures and there are many even in individual countries. there's the Sami in the north of Scandinavia, the Basques in the Pyrenees, the Provencal, Normans, Bretons in France, the Turkish Cypriots, the Maltese, Serbs, Monegasques, Roma, Latvians, Germans, Swiss, Greeks, Montenigrans, Icelanders, etc etc etc. Each has it's concerns and it's politics, we have political views from the extreme right to the extreme left and everything in between and then some. We have countries with healthcare and those where you have to pay insurance as in America, we have countries that are conservative and those that are liberal, we have socialist countries and probably the most conservative country in the world..the Vatican.. We have countries that are so poor they can afford very little in the way of anything and others that are very rich and have a very high standard of living. Some countries are very religious like Malta others like Cyprus are divided and have two governments. There is such a variety of poiltical viewpoints, governments and ways of running a country that it's incorrect to use the words 'European politics' as if it were all the same everywhere.
If we are going with healthcare though perhaps our system isn't the worst and comparison to yours are actually favourable for the UK as one of six European countries that do better than the US. The other countries that do better than the US being Canada, Austraila and Japan.
"Direct comparisons of health statistics across nations are complex. The Commonwealth Fund, in its annual survey, "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall", compares the performance of the health care systems in Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Germany, Canada and the U.S. Its 2007 study found that, although the U.S. system is the most expensive, it consistently underperforms compared to the other countries.[SUP][16][/SUP] A major difference between the U.S. and the other countries in the study is that the U.S. is the only country without universal health care. The OECD also collects comparative statistics, and has published brief country profiles"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_systems
We're probably a bit far away for you to understand how Australia works
. We can have swords here if we want to. You just need to have a permit. I have lots of friends who practice Iaido and they have live blades.
We're probably a bit far away for you to understand how Australia works
I was under the impression they were outlawed totally. Sorry for the misrepresentation.
David43515
Master Black Belt
I would never claim to be an expert on European culture, politics, laws, or it`s economy. I have a hard enough time trying to keep up with what`s going on in one country, let alone such a diverse collection of other countries. But I have to agree with Bill Mattocks when he said that we have very different ideas of what "freedom" means. And even though none of the nations in Europe share all the same laws, from our point of view they are deffinately less "free" than the US. And the fact that most of the europeans I`ve met don`t seem to notice that always boggles my mind. I don`t mean to say the American model is the only way, I just mean that the differences often seem VERY pronounced to me.
I think it may be because the US is such a vast area. I see it here in Japan and I think I see the same thing in many european countries. Because the population density is high most people are taught to maintain a social harmony, to "get along" because there`s no where else to go. So everyone is encouraged to maintain a stable society. For the majority of history orders and authority trickled down from above, from the nobility to the common man. In the US however, there was always a frontier to go to. Most of our ancestors had left their homelands behind when they came to North America. And since there were always new opportunities somewhere else, they didn`t feel the need to conform to their neighbors expectations. They knew that they could move on to somewhere new because they`d already done it before. Also, when we formed the republic after the revolution we strived for a new type of government where authority came from the common man up to the ruling class. (Yes, you can argue that it never happened. But the ideal filled American thought and literature for decades and shaped how we think about governemt and it`s role in our lives.) So our laws are set up in such a way that to protect my own right to say and do what I want, I agree not to limit my neighbor`s right to do the same no matter how offensive I may find it so long as no one is hurt. Earlier I cited the example of the recent law passed in France banning the wearing of burkhas and facial veils in public. The way I understand the law it says no one is allowed to wear them even if they want to. To an American point of view this is restricting. The same law written from an American point of view (for want of a better term) would simply say that no one can make you wear one if you don`t wish to. It may seem like a small difference, but to us it`s a very significant one.
This has just been me rambling about my own opinion, and I may be full of crap. Remember the price of admission and take it for what it`s worth.
I think it may be because the US is such a vast area. I see it here in Japan and I think I see the same thing in many european countries. Because the population density is high most people are taught to maintain a social harmony, to "get along" because there`s no where else to go. So everyone is encouraged to maintain a stable society. For the majority of history orders and authority trickled down from above, from the nobility to the common man. In the US however, there was always a frontier to go to. Most of our ancestors had left their homelands behind when they came to North America. And since there were always new opportunities somewhere else, they didn`t feel the need to conform to their neighbors expectations. They knew that they could move on to somewhere new because they`d already done it before. Also, when we formed the republic after the revolution we strived for a new type of government where authority came from the common man up to the ruling class. (Yes, you can argue that it never happened. But the ideal filled American thought and literature for decades and shaped how we think about governemt and it`s role in our lives.) So our laws are set up in such a way that to protect my own right to say and do what I want, I agree not to limit my neighbor`s right to do the same no matter how offensive I may find it so long as no one is hurt. Earlier I cited the example of the recent law passed in France banning the wearing of burkhas and facial veils in public. The way I understand the law it says no one is allowed to wear them even if they want to. To an American point of view this is restricting. The same law written from an American point of view (for want of a better term) would simply say that no one can make you wear one if you don`t wish to. It may seem like a small difference, but to us it`s a very significant one.
This has just been me rambling about my own opinion, and I may be full of crap. Remember the price of admission and take it for what it`s worth.
David43515
Master Black Belt
I appreciate your point, and I agree with you to an extent. But your own quote said that Hitler played on feelings and ideas that had been prevelant in Europe for centuries. Hitler probably didn`t go on the road encouraging pogams in Czarist Russia, and I doubt he gave speeches in the Ukraine that encouraged so many of them to turn their Jewish neighbors over to the SS. He did however stiffle people who spoke out against him. When we think of ideas being cencored and books being burned, of people disappearing in the night because they were overheard saying the wrong thing, the Nazis are one of the first images that come to mind.
When you look at the image of the lone man standing in front of a Chinese tank in Tienamin Square refusing to move because he believed in democracy for China, do you doubt that he was raised on propaganda from the communist government? I`m sure he was, but he chose to act differently. A missionary can preach his religion for days on end, it doesn`t mean the people listening will all suddenly believe. And a neo-nazi can preach hate and violence until he`s blue in the face but it wouldn`t make me believe anyone is inferior to me because of their race or ancestry. Those are choices we all make individually. I`m sure Otto Schindler who rescued so many Jews at the end of WWII heard all those same speeches, and he was even in a position that allowed him to reap huge profits from the labor of Jews in intenment camps. He was vested in the system and was a part of it, but he made a choice to distance himself from it in the end. Sometimes we choose the easy path and sometime we choose the hard one, but it always comes down to choice. I respect you Tez, and I always enjoy reading your opinions because you`re a straight shooter, but this time we`ll have to agree to disagree.
WC_lun
Senior Master
I think you may have a solid point here. The way that the US was established has greatly influenced our collective thought process and laws. In some ways that is good and some ways that is not so good. Many of the countries in Europe understand intimately the price of not being able to live peacably with thier nieghbor. Is it any suprise they would have laws addressing that? I think that sometimes we should learn from European countries and thier experiences. Instead many want to automatically dismiss anything European, from goods to thoughts, in favor of blind devotion to the US. Devotion is to country is not a bad thing in itself, but blind devotion to anything to the point of not learning from history and experience is short sighted to say the least.
I have no problem with disagreeing with you! Discussion and different points of view are the lifeblood of society if they aren't to stagnate.
I can't agree with Bilcihak's premise though that he can compare 'Europeans' to Americans, it comes off as sounding superior and self congratulatory as well as being completely wrong.
Americans I've found are up front and far more vocal than most people, I think you are still finding your feet as a country but I don't think comparing yourself to Europe is the way to go. I don't think either that you are quite as free as you think nor is Europe as 'unfree' as you think, no one gets to the heart of a country and it's citizens by just meeting it's citizens or going there on holiday. There's far more going on in a country than you will discern from reading what your own press says.
Everyone tends to think of their country as 'best', America is differnt not 'best, telling people from other countries that the American way is the only way, that it's the only free country isn't the way to make friends, it shows a huge lack of understanding and literally makes enemies of people who needn't be. You say you have free speech enshrined in law but you also have the PC brigade who will ensure that a lot of what you want to say can't be said, you can shout that you have rights but there's a lot you can't say, some of it will be offensive I'm sure and 'shouldn't' be siad but you can't boast you have free speech if you can't use certain words/phrases or express thoughts. The television companies won't have it so it's not government censorship, it's censorship by the media. Americans often quote that they might not like what you say but will defend your right to say it, sounds good but your media, your academic institutions and your legislature won't let people say what they want. We had a Hollywood actress on television the other day who laughed when the word 'cervical' was used on a news item, she told the interviewer that wouldn't have been allowed on most American television channels. A small example maybe but certainly not freedom of speech.
You value free speech but also don't have it as completely as you think you do. Probably better for Bili to address himself to that rather than compare America to Europe or anywhere else for that matter.
. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...mas-America-Whatever-you-say-say-nothing.html
The author of this is the Telegraph's American editor who has also been inAfghan with the Welsh Guards and written a book about them.
A wonderful series of posts above, my fellow forumites - I bow in appreciation but look a little glum as you're covered pretty much the ground I would've gone to :lol:
OP
- Thread Starter
- #54
And who forms he PC brigades Tez? Who has instilled speech codes on college campuses here in the states? Who throws glitter on people they disagree with and who throws pies on speakers at college campuses? Who wants fox news taken off the air? Who wants to censor the internet? The answer to those questions will look more like Europe than the U.S. and I have to say, that is one of the reasons I bring up these points about Europe. People in the States need to get a glimpse of the different approach to freedom and liberty in the different countries.
Wow the points made about Europe being totally different countries went right over your head didn't it? You are still talking of Europe as if it were one country.
What on earth are you accusing Europeans of now? You must live in a veritable fantasy world as you don't take anything on board that doesn't fit with your view of the world.
Are you trying to say that the American people have no mind or will of their own that everything is imported from Europe? How very, very silly. Your problems are your own mate, look to yourselves or rather look to your right wing cronies.
So you look to Europe, and see what? countries so conservative they make America look communist, countries that are still communist, countries that are mildy conservative, countries that are conservative/liberal, some are socialist, some are religious, how can you look at all the countries in Europe and just see one thing? Incredible and somewhat disturbing.
Sigh....
Canada is the worlds best country. End of discussion, end of thread....
Canada is the worlds best country. End of discussion, end of thread....
Well you certainly had some stunningly beautiful women in Calgary when I visited . Walked into Joey Tomatoes restaurant to be greeted by a glorious red head in a silk gown, with equally lovely blondes and brunettes at her back ... forgot what I went in for :faints:
. Walked into Joey Tomatoes restaurant to be greeted by a glorious red head in a silk gown, with equally lovely blondes and brunettes at her back ... forgot what I went in for :faints:
Well you certainly had some stunningly beautiful women in Calgary when I visited
:lfao:
ballen0351
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Sigh....
Canada is the worlds best country. End of discussion, end of thread....
No way and american bacon is way better then that canadian ham you try to pass off as bacon too
