Europe and freedom, not getting it...

[billc]

Here is an article about the lack of freedom of thought over on the continent. Apparently, as many have discovered, freedom of thought, and association hasn't quite caught on over there, never a good thing. You would think that whole, world war 2 and cold war thing would have been a lesson in the need for individual freedom from government control. Hmmm...maybe they will get it in the next century...

http://bigpeace.com/pschweizer/2012...urtain-rising-dictatorships-on-the-continent/

You wouldn’t know it by looking at trends in Europe, where tyranny is on the rise. It’s not in the direct form of Soviet gulags, military parades or police beatings on the street. But it comes instead packaged in laws and intimidation by the left. There are some things you just shouldn’t say in Europe. And if you do? You might get prosecuted, or even murdered. Don’t believe me? Consider some developments in different corners of Europe.

In several European countries, as Bruce Bawer powerfully points out in the Wall Street Journal today (subscription required), it is against the law to raise questions about the teachings of Islam. He writes: ”Criticizing Islam is now a punishable offense in several European countries. In the past few months alone, a Danish court fined writer Lars Hedegaard for talking about Islam’s treatment of women in his own home, and activist Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff was found guilty of lecturing about Muhammad’s marital history in what an Austrian court considered an inappropriate tone.” Bawer has a powerful new short book available on Kindle out on the subject. He appropriately titles it: “The New Quislings: How the International Left Used the Oslo Masssacre to Silence Debate About Islam” I urge you to get a copy.

In Italy, as Walter Olson writes at cato-at-liberty.org, Labor Professor Pietro Ichino, who challenges the power of Italian labor unions, fears for his life and has lived under armed escort for the past ten years. He drives around in an armored car and has two plainclothes policemen always nearby because people on the left want to murder him for his views. This is not paranoia: as Olson points out, two other labor law professors, Massimo D’Antona and Mario Biagi, who held the same views, have been murdered.

Remember, the solution to speech you don't like is more speech that you do like, not prohibiting others from speaking their minds. That is just a little lesson from your younger cousins across the pond...

Here is the link to the article on the murder of people opposed to Italian unions...

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/labor-law-professors-defy-death-threats-in-italy/

In 1999 and 2002 leftist gunmen associated with the Red Brigades murdered two other reformist labor law professors, Massimo D’Antona and Mario Biagi. (Details here.) Prof. Biagi, a well-known figure nationally, was shot as he arrived at his Bologna home and dismounted his bicycle.

I guess he should have looked a little harder for the union label...

Like his slain colleague Biagi, Ichino started out as a man of the Left — a Communist parliamentarian, in fact — who became convinced that the state-enforced equivalent of lifetime job security actually worked against the interests of ordinary young workers, who were increasingly frozen out from being offered jobs in the first place.

Wow, that is just crazy thinking, no wonder they want to shoot him...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The USA has a different notion about freedom and rights than most of the world. I prefer the US version, but I note that many countries support a person's right not to be offended, and freedom of speech is often severely restricted for many reasons and issues. In Germany, one may not distribute pro-Nazi literature, and people have been sent to prison for publicly denying the Holocaust. I can't agree with their take on human rights or freedoms, but they have a different view of things than we do.

 

[granfire]

As usual, the world according to billi....over simplified and 3rd hand....

Unlike the US, the hardcore Islamists are only a short walk away in Europe, and gosh, do I dare say? In Italy there is such a thing as the mafia. They ain't calling it that, but yeah, it's there.

Oh, and the precursor of WWII has taught Europe that not all speech is to be free.

As for the Soviets/Russians, well, they always did things differently....

What else is there?

Ah, billi linked some stuff. Good for him.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Just curious billcihak, what do you do with all this freedom you have in the US? What do you, specifically you, do that we can't do here in Canada or in Europe?
Just curious is all.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Just curious billcihak, what do you do with all this freedom you have in the US? What do you, specifically you, do that we can't do here in Canada or in Europe?
Just curious is all.

Most of us do very little with our freedoms. But that's not really the point. No one ever died of having too much freedom. Plenty have died of having too little of it.

 

[billc]

Well Ken, I could write a book about why islamic terrorism is dangerous, can you do the same and not get pulled into court like Mark Steyn? At this point, our unions aren't actually murdering people who don't belong to them. I own firearms, a couple of pistols, we are still in Illinois so I cannot carry them legally...yet.

 

[granfire]

Most of us do very little with our freedoms. But that's not really the point. No one ever died of having too much freedom. Plenty have died of having too little of it.

Ah, no. Plenty of people do die from having too much freedom.

However, strangely enough, with greater discipline comes greater freedom.
While under a seemingly stiff corset of rules there is enough room for everybody to speak out.

 

[billc]

Were you reading from 1930's German history there Granfire?:angel:

 

[Omar B]

 

[billc]

I think I will, and I'll have another portion please...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_complaints_against_Maclean's_magazine

Human rights complaints against Maclean's magazine were filed in December 2007 by Mohamed Elmasry of the Canadian Islamic Congress with theCanadian Human Rights Commission, the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal and the Ontario Human Rights Commission. Maclean's magazine was accused of publishing eighteen Islamophobic articles between January 2005 and July 2007. The articles in question included a column by Mark Steyntitled "The Future Belongs to Islam".[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP]
The Ontario Human Rights Commission ruled that it did not have the jurisdiction to hear the complaint. The British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal heard the complaint in June 2008 and issued a ruling on October 10, 2008 dismissing the complaint. The Canadian Human Rights Commission dismissed the federal complaint on June 26, 2008 without referring the matter to a tribunal.[SUP][3][/SUP]

Now the point to this wikipedia link is the fact that he was dragged into court over a magazine article.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Ah, no. Plenty of people do die from having too much freedom.

Example?

However, strangely enough, with greater discipline comes greater freedom.
While under a seemingly stiff corset of rules there is enough room for everybody to speak out.

In many European countries, today, if you write a book stating that the Holocaust never happened, you go to prison. Explain to me the room for everyone to speak out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#Prosecutions_and_convictions

One could say that it's just as well that such things are illegal to say; because after all, they stir up strong emotions and they are not true. Same argument people make when they try to make religion illegal.

 

[billc]

I read a book about this once, it had something to do with books, and firemen, but they were starting fires, not putting them out, and books were dangerous because they caused people to feel bad...


And for my fans out there...

Re: Europe and freedom, not getting it...

Get it, I copy and pasted your copy and pasted...

 

[Ken Morgan]

Well Ken, I could write a book about why islamic terrorism is dangerous, can you do the same and not get pulled into court like Mark Steyn? At this point, our unions aren't actually murdering people who don't belong to them. I own firearms, a couple of pistols, we are still in Illinois so I cannot carry them legally...yet.

Nothing there I can't do. What else?

 

[billc]

If I lived across the border in Indiana I could carry a pistol for self-defense, and if I did write that book, I wouldn't be dragged before a tribunal, you might be though.

Here are some laws from canada...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada

Hate speech laws in Canada include provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada, provisions in the Human Rights Act and in other federal legislation, and statutory provisions in each of Canada's ten provinces and three territories. The Criminal Code prohibits "hate propaganda." The Canadian Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination on various grounds, and forbids the posting of hateful or contemptuous messages on the Internet. Legislation in the provinces and territories prohibits discrimination on the same grounds as Canada's Human Rights Act in matters of provincial or territorial concern such as employment and accommodation.

 

[Omar B]

I read a book about this once, it had something to do with books, and firemen, but they were starting fires, not putting them out, and books were dangerous because they caused people to feel bad...


And for my fans out there...

Re: Europe and freedom, not getting it...



Get it, I copy and pasted your copy and pasted...

Cool, maybe you'll get usw all newspaper subscriptions for a gift. Ya know, the actual source.

 

[Ken Morgan]

If I lived across the border in Indiana I could carry a pistol for self-defense, and if I did write that book, I wouldn't be dragged before a tribunal, you might be though.

Here are some laws from canada...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada

Nope not for the subject you brought up, sorry.
Seriously you have not told me anything, anything that you are doing today, that i can not not do here.
Freedom mean ****, unless you are will to take advantage of it and mould a life and society you want.
Curious have you spent much time in Canada?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Freedom mean ****, unless you are will to take advantage of it and mould a life and society you want.

I disagree. Freedom is like air; more is better. It doesn't mean you have to breathe it all or have it taken from you. Freedom is not about what you choose to do, it's about what you can choose to do.

 

[granfire]

Example?



In many European countries, today, if you write a book stating that the Holocaust never happened, you go to prison. Explain to me the room for everyone to speak out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#Prosecutions_and_convictions

One could say that it's just as well that such things are illegal to say; because after all, they stir up strong emotions and they are not true. Same argument people make when they try to make religion illegal.

Have billi dig it up for you.

Yes it is illegal in many countries (many, really? Aside from Austria?) to say the holocaust never happened.
Well, for starters the perpetrators meticulously documented all of it, to almost the last gold crown they stole from the dead bodies.
And usually the utterance of such premise is part of a larger evil, commonly referred to as 'Volksverhetzung'
Which is a kin to yelling fire in a packed movie house. it falls under hate speech and a few other acts that are no longer allowed since in the 1930s somebody took the liberty - freedom - to bend and abuse the rules.
it spits on the mass graves of about 6 million Jews, 5 million assorted, Sinty/Roma, homosexuals, 20 million Russians, a few million Brits and Americans, Poles...and what have you. It is documented in word and sound as well as moving and still photography.

So proclaiming it never happened, you are either too dumb to be allowed in public or up to evil - forget 'no good'.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Have billi dig it up for you.

Yes it is illegal in many countries (many, really? Aside from Austria?) to say the holocaust never happened.

Yes, read the link.

So proclaiming it never happened, you are either too dumb to be allowed in public or up to evil - forget 'no good'.

Think about what you're saying.

It's hard to have a discussion when you're just playing games.

 

[granfire]

Yes, read the link.



Think about what you're saying.

It's hard to have a discussion when you're just playing games.

Playing games?

Come over to my house for a week and we can see how much gamesmanship is left after a day.

No, no games. The History of Europe is nothing to play games with. No matter what billi thinks he read in whatever book or fish wrap.
There are just a few things that are. Like the misconception that saying whatever pops into your head, however asinine is a right.
It is not. It is a lofty ideal a handful of wealthy white men put on paper, at a time when Katherine the Great was considered progressive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_absolutism
It is a privilege that has been bought with rivers of blood.

And it has been forefitted under mountains of corpses.

So, again: If you truly believe the Holocaust never happened, you are a tart. That is a generic you, not you personally.
If you don't really believe it and still spout it, you are obviously out to hurt, either feelings or people.

However, if somebody who probably has never crossed a state line - like billi - thinks he has the answers to all things that ail the world....
billi, at best, should be considered a 'spoon': set on stiring things up, not in a good way.
If he were ever to be dropped of in a foreign country, he'd have a massive culture shock I am not sure he could survive.
Or he'd find himself surrounded by people who have similar trains of thought: those evil communist Neo Nazis. Bummer, eh.


Currently there are to many blind folks here trying to discuss the merit of color.
Not having much time for that right now, as there is such thing as REAL LIFE that encroaches on me from time to time and engages my thinking power. Dealing with Highschool, I have no time for Kindergarden.


I sure hope billi is just trolling with the manure he links to all the time, because otherwise, heaven help this world....

Y'all know where to leave the negative rep.
TTFN