do you think kata and kiai is necessary and good in ma?

[seasoned]

maybe that's why Funakoshi - sensei changed the name to 'heian' (Peaceful Mind)

you literally need to have a peaceful mind doing them =]

"The calm within a storm". This is one of the most important aspects of the mental training benefits that sometimes goes unnoticed, from kata training. In a street self defense situation an uncluttered, calm, focused mental state, is in part what is needed to survive. I believe this is what Funakoshi meant, from your above writing.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

For me, I consider sanshin and kime to be the most important aspects of kata. If you don't have the proper attitude and focus all the muscle memory is for naught. You have to blend them as you learn, not learn one seperate from the other. If you practice a kata 5000 times you're muscle memory will be well developed. You could mechanically go through the kata perfectly and still fail your test because you weren't really "there". For me though, it doesn't work well as a training aid. I think the ideals of kata are good to persue but imagination has to be used for imaginary opponents and how effectively you can use your imagination as a training tool will dictate how closely you can make yourself feel like it's the real thing which will, in turn, be a strong factor in how well you can cultivate your attitude and how realistic your focus will be. So I think some have an easier time getting more out of their kata than others. It's a good tool for learning how one move progresses to the next, developing finesse and the bunkai shows the theory and application. It's a neat little package, I just don't get as much out of it.

As for kiai, it isn't a yell, it's forcing the air from your guts really hard ("OS!", not "EEEAI!") to tense the body at the precise moment just before impact where it will be most effective. Like an uraken/backfist, you don't tense it up until just before you make contact. When you exhale (not kiai) with a less dynamic technique, you aren't letting much air out, the idea is that the air coming out gets "pinched off" which creates pressure in the body, like a steam engine, and contracts more muscles in the body (remember, you don't hit them with your hands, they're just levers that make contact, you're hitting them with your body) again at the point of impact. A kiai is just a bigger exhale, theoretically giving you even more power. Many feel unsatisfied with the amount of sound they can make exhaling and embellish it with their vocal chords more. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

Personally I think a really loud crazy yell is more effective on their psychology. Just make sounds like one of those aliens from "Mars Attacks" while you beat on him. "Aht! Ahtadat! AHT!"

Really though, we knew this vicious dog up the block who was always jumping on the chain wanting to get a piece of me, and I assume, most people who walked by. My mother and I were riding bikes home one night and we recognized he was the dog, out roaming off his leash (and it was dark, he was already within 20 feet of us before we saw him). He ran toward my mom and she let out an immense scream of terror that caused the dog to tuck his tail and trot away with his head down. I don't blame him, never heard anything like it either. The effect sounds can have on psychology is immense. They can have a distracting effect, they can freeze you up or they can even get you to hit harder because you think you're hitting harder.

All in all I agree with Xue though and that the CMA schools of thought have very valid ideas on the subject. I do believe it has a physical effect on helping the body hit harder but more than that the psychological effect of knowing what it's for when you use it. Psychosomatic reinforcement or something like that. Many theories are valid and there's no perfect chess game. Always a foil for everything.

 

[Blade96]

I personally love performing kata, I found them very good tools in working your techniques and helping with hand/foot timing, especially for kids. But beyond that forms are crucial with keeping up with the traditional aspects of the martial arts. There are many articles and facts proving the effectiveness of kiais.

ditto =] kata and kiai rocks my socks hehe

Not really. I mean, they might be crucial to keeping up with the traditions of a particular martial art. (By definition, one that traditionally uses kata.) But there are plenty of martial arts in which forms are either not traditionally used at all or have traditionally been taken or left at the discretion of the teacher.

There are lots of cultural trappings that might mark something as a traditional art versus a modern art (e.g., titles, ranks, uniform or costume, terminology, classtime rituals, etc.). But kata isn't necessarily one of them.


Stuart

i agree with this too. I know ma's who dont use em and dont need em. Even shotokan, i watched people sparr at the tournament, They dont spend time trying to get blocks and such just right as you do in kata, its different. I personally love it. But its ok if others dont. My fave saying, Whatever floats your boat

do I think kata and kiai is necessary and good in ma?

Necessary... Nope.

Good in MA, depends on the style

CMA no Kiai and there are some schools of thought from CMA that would say kiai with a strike is counter productive and not a good thing. Also there are good MA styles that have neither. Sanda has neither and I have to tell you my Sanda Sifu is damn good at MA.

However they do have their necessary place in some styles and if you want to train those styles and understand those styles then they are necessary.

I know sometimes kiai with strike is counterproductive. This one guy i heard of in kumite he always attack with kiai most of the time. His opponent caught onto it and used it to his advantage to whip his butt in competition.

"The calm within a storm". This is one of the most important aspects of the mental training benefits that sometimes goes unnoticed, from kata training. In a street self defense situation an uncluttered, calm, focused mental state, is in part what is needed to survive. I believe this is what Funakoshi meant, from your above writing.

yep thats exactly what he meant. I love his philosophy and spend a lot of time reading it. Its not just that i read about it, I feel it, intuitively in the kata itself when i do it.

 

[Ken Morgan]

You can't practice jodo with them both

 

[jks9199]

True and seasoned's post explained it very well but there are schools of thought in CMA, mostly (in my experience) Xingyiquan that believe you should be able to do that no matter inhale, exhale kiai or no kiai. Also there is a school of thought form CMA that feels that if you can only strike with kiai and that kiai is necessary to shape the timing and rhythm of a technique, controlled exhalation, bring the body's efforts together and focus on what you're doing... I am going to attack you immediately after you kiai because you cannot attack without it and you need to inhale to do it again.

My Xingyiquan Sifu was big on this if you can only strike on exhale then he was going to attack you right after you exhaled because you could not do it again until after an inhale. He was constantly telling the class; do not lock your breathing to your strikes. Breathing was always suppose to be normal and power came from being relaxed and training the body to work as a unit through stance training, But that is Xingyiquan and I would not expect other MAs to train that way nor would I base a good MA on the presence or lack of santi

I am not against a Kiai, it has it place no doubt but it is not, IMO, Necessary for all MA and it can be a determent in some cases.

The externalization of the sound often is the starting point. Once the principle has really been internalized and learned -- the external sound may go away, but the kiai remains.

Dave Lowry included a story in an essay about a samurai who took one of his retainers to visit a master of the tea ceremony, telling the retainer that the tea master had great kiai, and that there was never a moment where his attention and focus wavered. The retainer watched, and just as he thought he saw his chance to hit the tea master over the head with his fan, the tea master commented to the samurai about how great a retainer the man was... and froze him with a look. There's another story about a pair of samurai who were about to duel, and as they set to fight -- the one froze the other with his glare; some accounts say it was as if beams shot out of his eyes, totally destroying the other man's will to fight.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The externalization of the sound often is the starting point. Once the principle has really been internalized and learned -- the external sound may go away, but the kiai remains.

Dave Lowry included a story in an essay about a samurai who took one of his retainers to visit a master of the tea ceremony, telling the retainer that the tea master had great kiai, and that there was never a moment where his attention and focus wavered. The retainer watched, and just as he thought he saw his chance to hit the tea master over the head with his fan, the tea master commented to the samurai about how great a retainer the man was... and froze him with a look. There's another story about a pair of samurai who were about to duel, and as they set to fight -- the one froze the other with his glare; some accounts say it was as if beams shot out of his eyes, totally destroying the other man's will to fight.

Thank you, I have read about many of those. There was one I read about a guy that scared a thief just by asking him to close the door when he was done.. and I do believe those stories. Also I know that it can and should be internalized, but many never get to that point and depend on the externalization of it way to much and that is where it becomes detrimental. But as I have said, I have nothing against training any part of any style if it is part of said style it should be trained and I do believe kiai is important to those styles that use it, however I do not think it is necessary to train kiai to be a good martial artist not do I think one should judge any MA based on the presence or lack of kiai training... same goes for forms (kata)

And as a note that look you are talking about.... just about every real Xingyi Sifu I have ever meant has it. They can scare the hell out of you with a look (I had one in Beijing do it to me as a test… that I failed) and I think that comes from Santi training :asian:

 

[Tez3]

I believe kata is neccessary to a point when you are young and learning an art yes it is neccessary because it gives you a basis on your strikes and blocks as for the kias yes because you must learn to get the air out of your body quickly once you become a black belt it is up to you on the importance of katas i myself dont practice all of my katas because i am more of a self defense person i train for the streets

If you are into self defence you should really look into katas and Bunkai. Kata isn't for just positioning, it gives you endless techniques for self defence.
It's a common mistake believing kata is just for 'stengthening the legs' or 'learning positions', if you know how to look it is a rich and varied technical manual for self defence.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp

 

[corwin137]

Would say, pressure test, repeatedly, with a resisting AND uncooperative opponent, with and without tools. Best way to find out, I'd argue.

Slightly more specifically, would say kata may assist one with some attributes (flexibility, vocabulary of movement and such), and certainly (depending on how one contextualizes it) "kiai" has some utility in terms of some additional concerns, but would argue these become almost irrelevant in the "mess" of an actual conflict. Would also say there's better ways to develop these attributes.

 

[Tez3]

I think it is foolish to condemn kata without actually knowing what it's for. Too many instructors have followed the line of thinking it's just to look pretty or it's for learning basic stances and moves. I really wish people would look into Bunkai and learn what kata is really for before deciding it's not for them. It may not be for you but at least find out what it is first.

 

[GreatLakes]

Kata is just "filler" used to take up time in McDojos.
Kata has no practical use.
If you want to take martial arts to be able to win fights and defend yourself, don't waste your time at a place that uses kata.
About the only thing kata is good for is identifying which places are the McDojos.

 

[Blade96]

Our senseis wont even consider grading us for a belt level unless we can explain each technique used in a kata and how its applied in the kata to the opponent (the bunkai) for example if i were explaining heian shodan (which i will have to do as im grading shortly for yellow belt, 8th kyu) and i explained the first and second shuto ukes I would say something like after the third oi zuki where i kiai i spin around and opponent is going to try and punch me so i block him with knife hand then grab his arm (or gi) and pull him closer to me, at the same time i move in and strike his neck with my other knife hand (the second shuto and darned if i remember my biology, is that where the carotid artery is in the neck)?

so i couldnt agree more, katas teach you to apply what you learned and how to use it vs someone. I couldnt disagree much more than I do, that they are only for 'space fillers' at mcdojos.

 

[72ronin]

I think Kata is essential for learning Martial arts allong with Kiai used properly.
Structure, focus determination etc.
Ofcourse it must all be trained properly, not talking about competition application here.
Which im sure greatlakes has only ever witnessed.. Get a punching bag and a weightset and youll only ever be a brawler, its that simple..

 

[Tez3]

Kata is just "filler" used to take up time in McDojos.
Kata has no practical use.
If you want to take martial arts to be able to win fights and defend yourself, don't waste your time at a place that uses kata.
About the only thing kata is good for is identifying which places are the McDojos.

I will be sure to pass that on to an MMA fighter friend of mine who's been signed up for the UFC recently, he still does karate and still does kata.
It's clear you have no idea what kata is or what it's for. Perhaps though you just felt you'd post that up to be 'controversial'? Or perhaps you don't actually know very much about martial arts at all!


My friend is 23 on this list and completed a 30 man kumite for BB as his club still does that old fashioned 'time filler', must be a hell of a dojo!

Karate fighters in the UFC, they have done other styles as well (obviously) as but karate (with kata) is their base style.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/30-successful-karate-fighters-mma-1040386/


Uses of kata

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart1.asp

 

[Xinglu]

Kata is just "filler" used to take up time in McDojos.
Kata has no practical use.
If you want to take martial arts to be able to win fights and defend yourself, don't waste your time at a place that uses kata.
About the only thing kata is good for is identifying which places are the McDojos.

Proof. Substantiate your statements because I'm calling them out as unfounded and ignorant. And I'm calling you out as a troll.

Kata has a multitude of uses, from cardio work to the actual application of the techniques found with in the kata. Each technique in a well designed kata should have multiple applications. Furthermore, to train at any TMA school is to have katas. This means that you have called ALL TMA schools McDojos. <sarcasm>Interesting, because there are no good Karateka, and Chuck Norris (Tang Soo Do) is a chump who's never won a fight. In fact clearly, Funakoshi, Ueshiba, Chow, Parker, and Emperado where all teaching Bullshido and where complete hacks who couldn't defend themselves. Clearly they got NOTHING from kata training.</sarcasm>

 

[ap Oweyn]

Kata is just "filler" used to take up time in McDojos.
Kata has no practical use.
If you want to take martial arts to be able to win fights and defend yourself, don't waste your time at a place that uses kata.
About the only thing kata is good for is identifying which places are the McDojos.

It's like a haiku of empty rhetoric. Neat.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Kata is just "filler" used to take up time in McDojos.
Kata has no practical use.
If you want to take martial arts to be able to win fights and defend yourself, don't waste your time at a place that uses kata.
About the only thing kata is good for is identifying which places are the McDojos.

Spoken like someone who has no clue about anything outside of the latest UFC PPV.

 

[Tez3]

Spoken like someone who has no clue about anything outside of the latest UFC PPV.

I think you are being a bit generous there lol! The knowledge shown so far of MMA is as weak as the post on this thread!
I do like the pic!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One issue with the term kata is that it is often thought of as a person executing techniques by themselves. Many kata, however, are partnered. All of the Kendo no kata require two people. I understand that Aikido has partnered kata as well.

A kata can be as simple as a two person drill or an incredibly elaborate solo execution of a plethora of techniques.

So, depending upon what type of kata you are talking about, the necessity question may or may not be answered differently.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

One issue with the term kata is that it is often thought of as a person executing techniques by themselves. Many kata, however, are partnered. All of the Kendo no kata require two people. I understand that Aikido has partnered kata as well.

A kata can be as simple as a two person drill or an incredibly elaborate solo execution of a plethora of techniques.

So, depending upon what type of kata you are talking about, the necessity question may or may not be answered differently.

Daniel

Judo has paired kata, Kime No kata. Deals with weapons and the defence against. My instructor has been teaching me and another student them.
http://judoinfo.com/katakime.htm

 

[edgedweapons]

i believe in Katas / Forms

Its great for drilling the proper body structure on certain movements. its also a great way to help the body understand the ending of one motion is the beginning of another.