differences

tshadowchaser

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
13,460
Reaction score
733
Location
Athol, Ma. USA
This has most likely been asked before but what are the major differences in the Kajukenbo systems? Example: Original/Palama/Gaylord
 

Chizikunbo

Purple Belt
Joined
Jun 13, 2004
Messages
306
Reaction score
2
I have read elsewhere that there are like 6 commonly accepted branches of KJKB those are Original, Chuan Fa, Wun Hap Keun Do, Tum Pai, Gaylord, and Ramos methods, as I understand it they are all the SAME base art with new interpretations...same beer different way of grabbing the mug possibly??
--josh
 

John Bishop

Master Black Belt
MTS Alumni
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
1,158
Reaction score
76
Location
Southern Calif.
ea031eec.jpg



The descriptions of the branches is here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43695
 

marlon

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
1,423
Reaction score
37
Location
montreal,canada
What would the kajukenbo community make of one of the founders (original BB society) meeting a Hawaian kempo instructor looking at his material that he has been practicing for decades and decides that with his lineage and his material that he is at mastery level in kajukenbo, awarding him a certificate and not asking him to change a thing...even though he never called his stuff kajukenbo?
Just to be clear i am in no way shape or form refering to myself. :)
Respectfully,
Marlon
 

John Bishop

Master Black Belt
MTS Alumni
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
1,158
Reaction score
76
Location
Southern Calif.
Certificates confer no knowledge. Neither do they re-write history.
Those that have spent their martial arts careers in Kajukenbo know who came in the front door and earned their ranks thru years of training, support, and loyalty to the Kajukenbo system.
And we know who came in the back door with a checkbook and left with some paper and title.
You can't re-write history. Either you were training in Kajukenbo during your career and received "earned" rank, or you trained in something else and received "honorary" rank in Kajukenbo.
Anyone who claims black belt rank in Kajukenbo should be able to demonstrate the curiculum from one of the 4 branches of Kajukenbo, not some other system.
 

marlon

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
1,423
Reaction score
37
Location
montreal,canada
Certificates confer no knowledge. Neither do they re-write history.
Those that have spent their martial arts careers in Kajukenbo know who came in the front door and earned their ranks thru years of training, support, and loyalty to the Kajukenbo system.
And we know who came in the back door with a checkbook and left with some paper and title.
You can't re-write history. Either you were training in Kajukenbo during your career and received "earned" rank, or you trained in something else and received "honorary" rank in Kajukenbo.
Anyone who claims black belt rank in Kajukenbo should be able to demonstrate the curiculum from one of the 4 branches of Kajukenbo, not some other system.


Thank you. What, in your opinion, could constitute another 'branch' of a specific martial art? What makes a style a 'branch' rather than something different. BTw in the scenerio i mentioned above the person would have trained and earned rank in a kaju system but then form thier own 'style' based around the system they trained in but never called it kajukenbo. and the 'story' goes that the rank was not paid for nor was it asked for and was given by one of the founders of kajukenbo, with insistance, as a recognition...of that person's style being in the same ohana as kajukenbo. I am just curious, and do not really care ...training is truth not opinions and politics and names and titles

Respectfully,
marlon
 

John Bishop

Master Black Belt
MTS Alumni
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
1,158
Reaction score
76
Location
Southern Calif.
Thank you. What, in your opinion, could constitute another 'branch' of a specific martial art? What makes a style a 'branch' rather than something different. BTw in the scenerio i mentioned above the person would have trained and earned rank in a kaju system but then form thier own 'style' based around the system they trained in but never called it kajukenbo. and the 'story' goes that the rank was not paid for nor was it asked for and was given by one of the founders of kajukenbo, with insistance, as a recognition...of that person's style being in the same ohana as kajukenbo. I am just curious, and do not really care ...training is truth not opinions and politics and names and titles

Respectfully,
marlon

I'll just address Kajukenbo. The branches and methods of Kajukenbo have always been "Kajukenbo" first, and a branch or method second. They just evolved their techniques. But they were always "Kajukenbo", and never considered a separate system.
Their creators never refered to themselves as founders of a separate system. In fact all 4 branches of Kajukenbo were approved by Sijo Emperado as branches of Kajukenbo, not separate systems. He is the head of all Kajukenbo, which includes all branches and methods.
Now I'm absolutely positive that the late Marino Tiwanak, Sonny Gascon, George Pesare, the late Nick Cerio, and Fred Villari, would never claim that their systems are branches of Kajukenbo under Emperado. They consider/considered themselves to be founders of their own system.
The definition of a branch of Kajukenbo wasn't actually written down until around 1990, when the International Kajukenbo Association was reactivated by Sijo Emperado. The requirements to apply for branch status in Kajukenbo was something like a current Kajukenbo "method" that had over 1000 members, and 3 generations of black belts. There also had to be unique techniques and concepts that are not present in the 4 branches. At this time I don't remember all the exact requirements, but know that no other branches have been added to the 4 (Original/Kenpo, Chuan Fa, Wun Hop Kuen Do, and Tumpai).

As to one of the founders recent rash of promotions, again I say history cannot be rewritten.
99.9% of all the Kajukenbo black belts in the world are in the lineage of Sijo Emperado. They are either his students, students of his students, or students of students of students, etc. He has established a continous legacy since the late 1940's. With the exception of Joe Holck, no other Kajukenbo founder has actively taught or made Kajukenbo black belt promotions until recently.
Over a year ago Sijo Emperado made the decision not to promote anyone anymore. He appointed a "Board of Advisors" consisting of 9 grandmasters (9th degree). One of their duties was to review and approve or disapprove of all 8th and 9th degree promotions in the the Emperado organization (KSDI-Kajukenbo Self Defense Institute of Hawaii).
When Sijo stopped promoting people, some individuals sought promotions elsewhere. They decided to create a "legacy" for one of the other founders who is very old and in poor health.
So in the last year we have seen several people promoted to 8th and 9th degree. People were cross ranked from other systems. Some 4th and 5th degrees were promoted to 8th degree. One individual who was a 6th degree 3 years ago was promoted to 8th degree, and then 3 months later promoted to 9th degree.
Many high ranking people in Kajukenbo are of the opinion that you do not create a "legacy" by promoting someone else's black belts to high ranks. You create a legacy by bringing up your own students to black belt, and assisting them in bringing up their students, and their students, and their students. This is done in decades, not a year or two.
 

RevIV

Black Belt
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
588
Reaction score
13
Location
Chelmsford
What would the kajukenbo community make of one of the founders (original BB society) meeting a Hawaian kempo instructor looking at his material that he has been practicing for decades and decides that with his lineage and his material that he is at mastery level in kajukenbo, awarding him a certificate and not asking him to change a thing...even though he never called his stuff kajukenbo?
Just to be clear i am in no way shape or form refering to myself. :)
Respectfully,
Marlon

If we are thinking of the same individual his Black Belt diplomas do say KajukeMbo
 

Danjo

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
1,378
Reaction score
60
Location
Fullerton, CA
Abraham Lincoln used to ask people this question: "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When they would answer "Five." He would give them a disgusted look and say, "Four! Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg!"
 

marlon

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
1,423
Reaction score
37
Location
montreal,canada
Abraham Lincoln used to ask people this question: "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When they would answer "Five." He would give them a disgusted look and say, "Four! Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg!"

truth is a beautiful thing!

marlon
 

Latest Discussions

Top