Pinan/Pinion and Katas

[BallistikMike]

Pinan/Pinion 1 - 5 were developed by whom?

Katas 1 - 6 were developed by whom?

My understanding is that some of the Pinans/Pinions are traditional Karate Kata or emulate them with their movements. Where the "Katas 1 -6" are the Self-Defense Katas containing most of the techniques of the original Kajukenbo system (Palama sets put together?)

I just wanted a formalized list for cataloging and cross refrencing if any of you could help a guy out?

Thankyou Mike

 

[Karazenpo]

Pinan/Pinion 1 - 5 were developed by whom?

Katas 1 - 6 were developed by whom?

My understanding is that some of the Pinans/Pinions are traditional Karate Kata or emulate them with their movements. Where the "Katas 1 -6" are the Self-Defense Katas containing most of the techniques of the original Kajukenbo system (Palama sets put together?)

I just wanted a formalized list for cataloging and cross refrencing if any of you could help a guy out?

Thankyou Mike

Hi Mike, in the original Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu the forms were called pinans. They were 1-5 but not what you think and not the Okinawan 5 pinan series either. They are what in Shaolin Kempo Karate referred to as Katas 1-5. Shaolin Kempo's #1 pinan is Shotokan's Taikyoku shodan (first cause form or the student's first look at Shotokan). #2 pinan was inspired by Taikyoku shodan, nidan and sandan, a sort of eclectic blending. #3, 4, and 5 were Mas Oyama's versions of Shotokan's Heian 3, 4 and 5. The Heian series was of course Funakoshi's version of the Okinawan 5 pinan series. By the way, Shaolin Kempo's kata #4 was inspired by Shotokan's Heian 2 which in Okinawan karate is their Pinan 1. Wow, gets confusing, doesn't it? lol. Kata #6 was created by Gm. S. George Pesare based on the original combinations of Karazenpo, the other five were put together by Sijo Gascon, the late Professor Walter L.N. Godin and I believe #3 Kata was a contribution of Karazenpo black belt David Kamalani. The series called katas in Shaolin Kempo but pinans in the early Karazenpo all contained elements of the older 'original method' Kajukenbo. Almost forgot, Statue of the Crane is an adaptation of Okinawan karate's Rohai (Symbol of the White Heron) and was added by Gm. Pesare. I think I covered all your questions and good luck sorting all that out, lol. Professor Joe Shuras

 

[RRouuselot]

Pinan/Pinion 1 - 5 were developed by whom?......

Itosu Anko developed them in Okinawa about 1900.

It is pronounce "pee-non" (Pinan)

……….. The Heian series was of course Funakoshi's version of the Okinawan 5 pinan series.

Uh, actually no….Funakoshi’s teacher Itosu developed the Pinan 1-5 kata…they are the same thing…..Heian is just the Japanese way to say the Okinawan word.

 

[Karazenpo]

Itosu Anko developed them in Okinawa about 1900.

It is pronounce "pee-non" (Pinan)






Uh, actually no….Funakoshi’s teacher Itosu developed the Pinan 1-5 kata…they are the same thing…..Heian is just the Japanese way to say the Okinawan word.

Hello Robert, I respectfully disagree. Itosu is correct as far as the Okinawan series goes but that wasn't the question. My post stated Funakoshi took the original Okinawan 5 pinan series and altered them to fit the perspective of the Japanese people and hense his Shotokan Karate and he re-named his altered version 'Heian'. He even reversed the numbers of forms 1 & 2, feeling that pinan 1 was too difficult as a first form in the series. This is all undisputed. He did the same thing with Okinawan's Rohai (symbol of the white heron), altering it and re-naming it Meikyo (mirror of the soul). They are not the 'same thing', if they were, they'd be no Shotokan! I specifically stated in my post that this was not the original Okinawan 5 pinan series Mike was asking about, it was the Shaolin Kempo Karate version of the Villari system. This 5 pinan series uses Taikyoku shodan as #1 pinan, #2 pinan is a 'hybrid' of Shotokan's Taikyoku shodan, nidan & sandan, SKK pinans 3, 4 & 5 were based on Mas Oyama's versions of Shotokan's Heian #3, 4 & 5. The Heian term is NOT in name only, as I stated above, these forms were altered by Funakoshi for his Shotokan system, which is the difference between Okinawan karate and Japanese karate. Remember, I posted the explaination is quite confusing, lol. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

PS: Actually Robert, even the Itosu credit is controversial depending on who you talk to. Take a look at this I dug out of my research files:

Also Known As: Heian, Heinan. Meaning: Way of peace (literally, "Great Peace", sometimes translated as "Calm Mind", "Peaceful Mind", "Serenity", or "Security.")

History: The Pinan kata series was introduced into the Okinawan School District karate program as gym training from 1902 to 1907 by Ankoh Itosu. The history of this kata is somewhat controversial - Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu stylists claim that Itosu developed all five kata using either the kata Passai and Kusanku. The Matsumura Seito Shorin-Ryu tradition states that Itosu only developed Pinan 5 by himself. (It is curious to note that Chosin Chibana, Itosu's senior disciple and Kobayashi founder, taught only Pinan 5 and Naihanchi 3 out of respect for Itosu's authorship.) Hohan Soken (family inheritor of Bushi Matsumura's style) taught only Pinan 1 and 2; saying that Matsumura had devised these two and laid framework for Pinan 3 and 4.

Gichin Funikoshi revised the order of 1 and 2, changed the kata name to Heian, and initiated deeper stances and higher kicks. He also replaced front kicks with side kicks and altered other moves in the series. Funakoshi was so well known for teaching the Pinan series that he was often referred to as the "Pinan Sensei." Interesting enough, he did not learn the Pinans from Itsou as he had already finished his training with the great mejin before they were developed.

According to several sources, Funikoshi was first introduced to the Pinans during a trip to Osaka where he received instruction from Kenwa Mabuni, the founder of Shito-Ryu.

During his subsequent visits he learned a number of the kata from Mabuni that would eventually be taught in the Shotokan system. Regardless of their origin or lineage, there is no doubt that today the Pinan Series is practiced world-wide by Okinawan, Japanese, as well as some Korean styles.

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Yep on all accounts, then theres the Channan thing. The low side kicks were Funakoshi's touch. The Okinawan pinan kata are finally getting some respect Lol. People are coming to realize that they aren't 'school kids' karate after all. But thats a whole nother can of worms.
BTW has anyone else noticed how the traditional kata names got twisted in Hawaiian kenpo?

BallistikMike: Good thoughts on the Villari thread

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Hey you too Prof. Shuras LOL.

 

[Karazenpo]

Yep on all accounts, then theres the Channan thing. The low side kicks were Funakoshi's touch. The Okinawan pinan kata are finally getting some respect Lol. People are coming to realize that they aren't 'school kids' karate after all. But thats a whole nother can of worms.
BTW has anyone else noticed how the traditional kata names got twisted in Hawaiian kenpo?

BallistikMike: Good thoughts on the Villari thread

Yeah, about the traditional kata names and Hawaiian kenpo? I think that's because there is no doubt in my mind that our system did indeed come from Okinawan Shorei ryu Kempo Karate of Nabura Tanamaha, a 1st or 2nd generation black belt of Choki Motobu via James Mitose. Then, we also have Mitose's close connection to Gm. Robert Trias of Shorei ryu (now known as Shuri-te). Remember, we are a subsystem of Kajukenbo and originally Kajukenbo called their forms Pinans (later changed to Palama sets). You also have not only Mitose teaching Naihanchi but later you have Professor Thomas Young (Mitose's senior black belt) asking permission to add the 5 pinan series from from kenpo's Bobby Lowe after studying Oyama's system. There is no doubt that we are strongly based in Okinawan karate, now I'm waiting to see proof of our ties to Japan and the Shaka-in and Japanese Kosho but the more I wait the less I think it's going to happen. Know what I mean? Some proof is coming up in documents by Dr. Ted Sumner (San Jose Kenpo forum) that Mitose had been in Japan. Dr. Sumner is a 'stand up guy' and wouldn't knowingly put anything false on his website, however, there still isn't anything showing Mitose actually studied Kosho or any martial art in Japan. Hey, it's fine with me, whether our roots are in Okinawa or Japan or a mixing of both, who cares? as long as the truth comes out. That's all guys like John Bishop and I ever asked for...the truth!

 

[Karazenpo]

Hey you too Prof. Shuras LOL.

Thanks, Monkey. Hey, you gotta tell me. How the hell did you come up with the handle: monkey-a-go-go?, LOl.

 

[Matt]

Pinan/Pinion 1 - 5 were developed by whom?

Well, both Joe and RRousselot are correct, unfortunately, they are talking about different but sort of overlapping things.
There's some general information at:
http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/kata_pinan.htm
I'll try to fill in a little color commentary around the comments by the two gentlemen.
Okay, here goes[pedantic].
1.) Heian / Pinan: Heian is (afaik) a contraction of Heiwa and Antasu?(sp). Peace and Calmness in Japanese. Pinan is a compound word made of the characters in chinese for Peace (P'ing) and Calmness (An). Same kanji, different language.

2.) In Funakoshi's early works(ca.1926), like Karate Jutsu, he performs the pinan series, in the original order, with the original (front only) kicks, and original stances. The 'shotokan kata' (heian) as we know it evolved later.

3.) In kempo from this lineage, we used a specific method for including material in our curriculum. I like to call it, 'steal everything that is not nailed down, and come back later that night with some friends, a crowbar and a pickup truck for the rest'.

4.) In Hawaii, Okinawan karate had arrived no later than 1905. This means that Naihanchi would be the beginner kata for many of the early karate devotees. This does not include goju. However, Japanese karate would not arrive for another 25 years or so so anyone who might have had the series would have had the pinan and most likely not the heian in the early days.

5.) Mitose taught intially only naihanchi shodan. Other karate katas were added as karate folks joined the club and taught the other members

6.) Chow's school used an I pattern for basics (much like the taikyoku series) and it was called 'kung line' work.
[/pedantic]

[wild assumption]
7.) As far as the pinan/pinion naming conventions for the kajukenbo and shaolin kempo forms, I believe at the time, pinions was used as a catch all phrase for forms/kata in some quarters. Somewhat like using a brand name like kleenex as opposed to facial tissue. As in,"Hey, get me a kleenex and show me your pinions.' In fact, I think the alternate spellings are an indication of how it entered the local jargon.
[/wild assumption]

Katas 1 - 6 were developed by whom?

Joe's pretty much covered the conventional wisdom on these ones as well.

My understanding is that some of the Pinans/Pinions are traditional Karate Kata or emulate them with their movements. Where the "Katas 1 -6" are the Self-Defense Katas containing most of the techniques of the original Kajukenbo system (Palama sets put together?)

Sort of. You get the gist. There are some overlapping kajukenbo tecniques, but mostly it's reformulated even down at the techniques level. If you were to see the first bunch of palamas forms, you wouldn't necessarily see 'combination 26', but you would recognize a bunch of movements. The forms wouldn't look too 'out of place'.

I just wanted a formalized list for cataloging and cross refrencing if any of you could help a guy out?

Thankyou Mike

Okay,

List Time:
Caution: These names are only accepted in Shaolin Kempo / Karazenpo. Traditional Karate guys will get a migraine following this.

One Pinan
Real karate name: Taikyoku shodan
Made up by:Funakoshi
Brought in by: at various times, almost everybody, most recently probably Nick Cerio

Two Pinan
Real karate name: It doesn't have one. There is a pinan nidan, but this isn't it.
Made up by:Nick Cerio
Brought in by:Nick Cerio
What is it? It is a mix of the chow 'kung line drill" the basics Nick Cerio learned in his hawaii trips, and Taikyoku nidan and sandan.

Three, Four, Five Pinan
Real karate name: Pinan Sandan,Pinan Yondan, Pinan Godan, but the forms have been changed a bit.
Made up byrobably Itosu (see link up near top of post)
Brought in by:Nick Cerio

1 through 5 Kata
Real karate name: None - these are strictly karazenpo / shaolin kempo forms. However, just to insure confusion, these were called 'pinans'.
Made up byrobably Victor Gascon, Walter Godin, maybe Dave Kamalani. However: Evidence is a smidgen spotty on ownership at the moment. I had a friend go do a seminar at a school of the late Dave Kamalani's lineage, and he said that they did not do these forms.
Brought in by:Gascon/Godin, Pesare?

6 Kata
Real karate name: None - these are strictly karazenpo / shaolin kempo forms. However, just to insure confusion, these were called 'pinans'.
Made up by:George Pesare
Brought in by:Same. There are some minor differences in the Shaolin Kempo version from his.

Whew!

Matt

 

[RRouuselot]

As long as we are getting down and dirty.....I have also read that Funakoshi didn't learn 2 of the Pinan from Itosu....he learned them from Yabiku Moden.
However, as for changing the kata.....Funakoshi's students were mainly responsible for the big changes. there is a group in Okinawa run by a friend of mine whos father studied under Funakoshi and they still practice the "Funakoshi versions". Having seen both the Funakoshi versions from the Okinawan group and comparing them to the Shotokan/JKA versions was a benifit to understand the differences.
Funakoshi switched Pinan 1 and 2 not because the Japanese were too stupid but because the original Pinan 2 has more basic stances and makes learning the other kata easier because of it.

 

[Karazenpo]

As long as we are getting down and dirty.....I have also read that Funakoshi didn't learn 2 of the Pinan from Itosu....he learned them from Yabiku Moden.
However, as for changing the kata.....Funakoshi's students were mainly responsible for the big changes. there is a group in Okinawa run by a friend of mine whos father studied under Funakoshi and they still practice the "Funakoshi versions". Having seen both the Funakoshi versions from the Okinawan group and comparing them to the Shotokan/JKA versions was a benifit to understand the differences.
Funakoshi switched Pinan 1 and 2 not because the Japanese were too stupid but because the original Pinan 2 has more basic stances and makes learning the other kata easier because of it.

Wow, chill out man, no one is trying get 'down and dirty', everyone is just pooling their information to draw the most accurate answer to the questions, that's all. I certainly didn't say the Japanese were too stupid on the Funakoshi number switch! Here's what I said:

He even reversed the numbers of forms 1 & 2, feeling that pinan 1 was too difficult as a first form in the series.

Here's what you stated:

Funakoshi switched Pinan 1 and 2 not because the Japanese were too stupid but because the original Pinan 2 has more basic stances and makes learning the other kata easier because of it.[/QUOTE]

So I say: One of us says #2 is easier to learn than #1 (you), the other (me) says #1 too difficult in comparison to #2. Yuh?

I say: What's the difference from what I stated and you stated? None!

Finally, regardless of who alterred what, the fact is Shotokan is different than tradtional Okinawan karate or it wouldn't be Shotokan and it HAS Funakoshi's fingerprints on it. Gichen Funakoshi is the undisputed founder of Shotokan Karate, therefore it is reasonable to believe that he had made alterations to the forms, if there's another story, fine, which there usually is in the history of all martial arts systems but nobody's intentions was to get down and dirty! I just wanted to clear the air on this. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

 

[Karazenpo]

Matt stated:

1 through 5 Kata
Real karate name: None - these are strictly karazenpo / shaolin kempo forms. However, just to insure confusion, these were called 'pinans'.
Made up byrobably Victor Gascon, Walter Godin, maybe Dave Kamalani. However: Evidence is a smidgen spotty on ownership at the moment. I had a friend go do a seminar at a school of the late Dave Kamalani's lineage, and he said that they did not do these forms.
Brought in by:Gascon/Godin, Pesare?

Hi Matt, I got that Kamalani information on #3 kata from brother Peter Teymourez in California. I'm sure you know of him. Peter is very anal on everything he reports but it would be interesting to check out further. Give it a shot. Who knows, curriculums were known to change often back then, especially with Sifu Leoning and I'm sure Professor Godin's Chinese Kenpo didn't use the original Karazenpo katas either but that was my source, other than that I heard it no where else. The funny part of Professor Cerio's pinan series additions was that he told me he got them from Mas Oyama's book! To this day, some websites have him listed as a student of Oyama but he never met the man!, lol. Hey, you have to give him credit, he pulled no punches, he was honest about it!, lol.

 

[RRouuselot]

.

 

[RRouuselot]

Wow, chill out man, no one is trying get 'down and dirty', everyone is just pooling their information to draw the most accurate answer to the questions, that's all. I certainly didn't say the Japanese were too stupid on the Funakoshi number switch! Here's what I said:

He even reversed the numbers of forms 1 & 2, feeling that pinan 1 was too difficult as a first form in the series.

Here's what you stated:

Funakoshi switched Pinan 1 and 2 not because the Japanese were too stupid but because the original Pinan 2 has more basic stances and makes learning the other kata easier because of it.

So I say: One of us says #2 is easier to learn than #1 (you), the other (me) says #1 too difficult in comparison to #2. Yuh?

I say: What's the difference from what I stated and you stated? None!

Finally, regardless of who alterred what, the fact is Shotokan is different than tradtional Okinawan karate or it wouldn't be Shotokan and it HAS Funakoshi's fingerprints on it. Gichen Funakoshi is the undisputed founder of Shotokan Karate, therefore it is reasonable to believe that he had made alterations to the forms, if there's another story, fine, which there usually is in the history of all martial arts systems but nobody's intentions was to get down and dirty! I just wanted to clear the air on this. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

Actually there is no reason to “chill out” since it was a JOKE…..

What I said was Funakoshi taught pinan 2 first so people could learn more stances from a single kata thereby expediting their learning of other kata (using those same stances) in the system. You said he taught it because it was easier….when actually the reason he taught it was so the students could learn faster…..not because it was easier…..of course I am just quoting the son of a former student of Funakoshi so it probably means nothing.
Regarding his altering kata….yup he did, but not to the extent his son and students did. He even wrote that the karate he studied as a youth was not the same karate as was being taught in Tokyo. He also wrote that adding things to karate like grappling was ridiculous….most likely referring to his student Ohtuska (Wado founder) who was teaching/combing jujutsu moves.

 

[Karazenpo]

Actually there is no reason to “chill out” since it was a JOKE…..

What I said was Funakoshi taught pinan 2 first so people could learn more stances from a single kata thereby expediting their learning of other kata (using those same stances) in the system. You said he taught it because it was easier….when actually the reason he taught it was so the students could learn faster…..not because it was easier…..of course I am just quoting the son of a former student of Funakoshi so it probably means nothing.
Regarding his altering kata….yup he did, but not to the extent his son and students did. He even wrote that the karate he studied as a youth was not the same karate as was being taught in Tokyo. He also wrote that adding things to karate like grappling was ridiculous….most likely referring to his student Ohtuska (Wado founder) who was teaching/combing jujutsu moves.

In all do respect, you're getting way too sensitive over this. I'll say this one more time and then I'm dropping it. I said it was EASIER, you said, the actual reason is because students could learn it FASTER. THE REASON THEY COULD LEARN IT FASTER IS BECAUSE IT WAS "EASIER"!!! And no one ever said "STUPID"!. Now, what part of that don't you understand? and quoting the son of a former student of Funakoshi is like saying I got this information from my friend's uncle's friend. In a court of law we call that heresay.........but I'm also not saying there is no truth to your statement either but that IS hearsay. Look, no one wants to argue and throw shots at each other, especially me, we're just trying to have a friendly discussion as we always do, share knowledge and theories in a search for the truth. That's all, fair and simple.

 

[RRouuselot]

1) In all do respect, you're getting way too sensitive over this. I'll say this one more time and then I'm dropping it. 2) I said it was EASIER, you said, the actual reason is because students could learn it faster. THE REASON THEY COULD LEARN IT FASTER IS BECAUSE IT WAS "EASIER"!!! 3) And no one ever said "STUPID"!. Now, what part of that don't you understand? 4) and quoting the son of a former student of Funakoshi is like saying I got this information from my friend's uncle's friend. In a court of law we call that heresay.........but I'm also not saying there is no truth to your statement either but that IS hearsay. 5) Look, no one wants to argue and throw shots at each other, especially me, we're just trying to have a friendly discussion as we always do, share knowledge and theories in a search for the truth. That's all, fair and simple.

1) Man you really have no idea what I am saying here…..are we writing in the same language???
I never got “sensitive” about it…..I said as long as we are getting down and dirty meaning as long as we are throwing out facts…..try and learn what sarcasim is.

Again here is what I said:
What I said was Funakoshi taught pinan 2 first so people could learn more stances from a single kata thereby expediting their learning of other kata (using those same stances) in the system.

2) You said: THE REASON THEY COULD LEARN IT FASTER IS BECAUSE IT WAS "EASIER"!!!

I never said Pinan 2 was easier than any other kata….. I was not talking about learning THAT kata faster……. I said learning that kata with most of the stances in it made learning the system faster not the kata…….your comments says he taught it so they could learn that single kata faster…..that is NOT what I am saying.

3) I said stupid.

4) here again you misread…..I wrote: of course I am just quoting the son of a former student of Funakoshi so it probably means nothing.

5) I just wish you would read my posts more carefully before answering them. You seem to be confused as to what my point is.

 

[Karazenpo]

IF Funakoshi stated this as written in one of the posts: "He also wrote that adding things to karate like grappling was ridiculous" then it is obvious he had no real combative experience whatsoever. I'm not downing him, he was a great pioneer, just stating the obvious. EPAK doesn't have grappling in their original curriculum, per se, but most that I know cross train in it and cetainly don't think adding it is ridiculous. I grant you there are specific & 'hidden' techniques in these systems that can be readily adapted to grappling but still, there is nothing like 'hitting the mats' for an all out bout to prepare you for reality fighting. Traditional karate is not a 'live' art but Judo & other forms of grappling, are, not to mention western boxing and kickboxing. Imho, 'Live' arts are an integral part of reality training. Just my thoughts.

 

[Karazenpo]

Okay, Robert. You have summed things up here and this is my major point to your posts. You stated: "try and learn what sarcasim is." That is my point. I do know what it is, I recognized it in your responses and there is No need for sarcastic remarks on this forum. Yes, it does happen sometimes, but I feel the VAST MAJORITY of us agree there is no need for sarcasm in friendly discussions and I stand by what I posted and my only language is 'English', lol. It's funny, I was going to ask you to read my posts more carefully also, lol, 'parallel thinking', I guess, lol.

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

The "Curse of the Internet" strikes again! LoL. I took the comment "Down and Dirty" as that everyone was getting technical. just a little deeper lol. Everyone interprets the dialogue differently. Thats why i am reluctant to post anything for fear it will be taken out of context and also try to be super polite. Every one has been awesome coming out with the info on this thread.

RRouuselot: Agreed-Gigo Funakoshi and the others really shaped japanese karate etc. There seems to be pockets of funakoshi original pre war style around the world - canada-philipines etc. Any other hints on what makes it distinct from your experience? I imagine it is like the karate jutsu books style. www.karate.org.yu has tons of old style karate info including pics of funakoshi's closer to original style showing pinan and naihanchi if anyone wants to check it out.


Karazenpo: monkey-a-go-go=too much caffeine+motobu+saru+"monkey dance"-hawaiian kenpo term. corny i know.
With the kata names in kenpo- There seems to be no end in the different spellings of naihanchi- guess its oral tradition. Nabura Tanamaha-when did issuing the black belt rank become popular? I thought that was later and still not prevalent with okinawans? Is that A&E special going to have anything on Mizuho's impact on hawaii's karate to the best of your knowledge? To me his link is very interesting. I wish the tracy's people would give their take on him. One last thing- Can you imagine all the sour puss's on "traditional" karate guys faces when they hear something like how cerio got his some forms form oyama's books?! Lol. Hey this stuff IMHO ain't rocket science. People would be surprised to learn where alot of "traditional" info came from historically. The wheel keeps getting perpetually re-invented.

Matt: Great stuff.

 

[RRouuselot]

1) IF Funakoshi stated this as written in one of the posts: "He also wrote that adding things to karate like grappling was ridiculous" then it is obvious he had no real combative experience whatsoever. I'm not downing him, he was a great pioneer, just stating the obvious. EPAK doesn't have grappling in their original curriculum, per se, but most that I know cross train in it and cetainly don't think adding it is ridiculous. I grant you there are specific & 'hidden' techniques in these systems that can be readily adapted to grappling but still, there is nothing like 'hitting the mats' for an all out bout to prepare you for reality fighting. 2) Traditional karate is not a 'live' art but Judo & other forms of grappling, are, not to mention western boxing and kickboxing. Imho, 'Live' arts are an integral part of reality training. Just my thoughts.

1) Funakoshi was pretty much of a wuss….which has been documented by several people that knew him….Motobu Choki “chumped him out” in front of Funakoshi’s own students…there are several stories of how Funakoshi was writing checks with his mouth his *** couldn’t cash. Prety funny reading!!!
2) Actually you are mistaken. What I consider “Traditional karate” is a “live art” at least the art I train is….don’t think so??? …just throw on some bogu gear and go full out no pulled punches sometime like we do….or do “randori” with strikes and joint locks like we do…it’s “tippy-tap” arts that practice point sparring that are not “live”…….those aren’t “Traditional karate”.