Curious how you would feel about...

Tiger-eye

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Someone who had substantial tkd experience(10 yrs) but took time off(5yrs) coming back and starting right where they let off? this was my exact situation. I appreciate my instructor immensely (not the same one, I actually used to train with this guy at someone else's studio) for letting me stay at my rank. I was a second degree before and in 7 months being back, I have solidified all previously learned material plus learned three new forms and 44 new sparring combos. I now just have juche left to learn before testing for third dan(and obviously more practicing). Most people would have looked at my time off and said I would need to start over, but my new instructor believed I could handle it.
 

Takai

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I would say that it would be up to the individual instructor as to how soon you could test for your next rank. As far as starting over....your rank should still be valid even if your skills weren't up to par. You would just have to bring them back up before working on new material.

So in short, I don't see an issue.
 

Dirty Dog

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It depends. There's just no way to give a one-size-fits-none answer.
If you still perform at your prior rank, then there's really no issue. If you can't, then why would you want to wear a belt you don't deserve?
It all comes down to performance.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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It depends. There's just no way to give a one-size-fits-none answer.
If you still perform at your prior rank, then there's really no issue. If you can't, then why would you want to wear a belt you don't deserve?
It all comes down to performance.

I have to agree in that it all comes down to performance in the end!
 

Sukerkin

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I see no issue with keeping your rank at all.

I dropped out of training for about a year or so with the illness and loss of my wife and am only returning now. I was on the cusp of taking my fourth dan when I stopped and it'll be a good while before I am ready for that again as I work on getting my 'polish' back but I'm still a third dan and always will be.

It's a peculiarity of the martial arts that there is an emphasis on "rank & performance" - I took my Economics degree in 1984 and have never used it but I still have it and noone would ever suggest that it should be taken from me. If our arts were vital to the survival of others (like pilots or doctors arts are) rather than just being a hobby (and for the vast majority of us that is what they are) then such vigilant scrutiny of whether someone is 'worth' their rank or not would be justified.

As it is, as long as a person is not making claims of current levels of skill they no longer have, I'd have no quibble with them showing their old rank, lapsed or not.
 

wingchun100

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DEFINITELY should be based on the individual's performance and how fast they get back into the groove. After an absence that long, an instructor should give the student time to warm back up. How long is their preference, of course.
 

oftheherd1

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I see no issue with keeping your rank at all.

I dropped out of training for about a year or so with the illness and loss of my wife and am only returning now. I was on the cusp of taking my fourth dan when I stopped and it'll be a good while before I am ready for that again as I work on getting my 'polish' back but I'm still a third dan and always will be.

It's a peculiarity of the martial arts that there is an emphasis on "rank & performance" - I took my Economics degree in 1984 and have never used it but I still have it and noone would ever suggest that it should be taken from me. If our arts were vital to the survival of others (like pilots or doctors arts are) rather than just being a hobby (and for the vast majority of us that is what they are) then such vigilant scrutiny of whether someone is 'worth' their rank or not would be justified.

As it is, as long as a person is not making claims of current levels of skill they no longer have, I'd have no quibble with them showing their old rank, lapsed or not.

Best answer from my point of view. Of course, as the OP apparently did, and as apparently Sukerkin is doing, you would want to go back to any techniques you knew needed work and get them back again.
 

Manny

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When I got back in 2007 afther almost 13 years of bein out of TKD I told my new master that if it was necesary to start all over again (from white belt) I will do it with no problem, my master know my former sambonims and he allow me to keep my rank and yes I will have to start slow and releraning the poomsae but afther 3 years of training I got my second dan with my new sambonim and afther 3 years more I will test for the third dan. In my case I knew all the basics and kicks and all the stuff but I only had flashes from the taeguks so I have to relearning again but no problem.

Manny
 

skribs

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At my school if you have recent experience but are not a black belt, you get a brown belt (not one of our colors) until the next testing as a placeholder so you can learn your forms and drills to test into whatever rank you should be.

With that said, we have a few of us who stopped TKD ~15 years ago and we both came in as a white belt. I did so because when I did this I stopped before becoming a teenager, and it was so long ago. The other guy started up with his kid and is only testing when his kid is ready; if he practiced hard he could probably be a black belt within a few months (he was a red belt when he quit and has done capoeira since then).
 

chrispillertkd

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Someone who had substantial tkd experience(10 yrs) but took time off(5yrs) coming back and starting right where they let off? this was my exact situation. I appreciate my instructor immensely (not the same one, I actually used to train with this guy at someone else's studio) for letting me stay at my rank. I was a second degree before and in 7 months being back, I have solidified all previously learned material plus learned three new forms and 44 new sparring combos. I now just have juche left to learn before testing for third dan(and obviously more practicing). Most people would have looked at my time off and said I would need to start over, but my new instructor believed I could handle it.

There shouldn't be any problem about retaining your old rank. You earned it. Now, I will say that if, for example, you trained until you only had a few months to go before your next promotion test and then quit when you returned to training you shouldn't have the expectation that you will be testing simply when those few months are up. You should imply train until your instructor thinks you're ready to test again. I have seen that happen when an old black belt shows up after years off and inform the instructor his "time's up." Yeah, not so much. (Really, IMO, people shouldn't even be asking to test in the first place, it should be something the instructor tells them but some schools do things differently.)

If you return to the same school, or a different school within the same association, there should be no need to start over from the beginning. Doing so would possibly be just an excuse to get more testing fees out of you. Now, if you go to a different association's school or start a different style, even just a different style of the same martial art, that's a different story.

From your post it sounds like you're focusing on getting yourself up to speed with things, which is a great attitude.

Pax,

Chris
 

granfire

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7 month ain't nothing....

After my hiatus, should I be able to return, I would appreciate being able to keep my rank, but I would have to switch organizations (largely the same people though, minus the normal turnover...)

But HELL no, I wouldn't want to actually WEAR that belt in class for the first few month!
Way to embarrassing to be that BB who can't get her leg up above belt....:wah:
 

WaterGal

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Our school would totally let them come back in with the rank they earned, and have done so for someone, but wouldn't promote them again until they'd gotten back up to speed on everything.
 

Carol

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At my school if you have recent experience but are not a black belt, you get a brown belt (not one of our colors) until the next testing as a placeholder so you can learn your forms and drills to test into whatever rank you should be.

I really like that idea a lot. That is an excellent way of showing respect for what the student has previously put forward, without showing any disrespect to the current colored belts that have dedicated themselves to the school's curriculum. :asian:
 

andyjeffries

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I always accept people at the rank they achieved.

Once you have a Bachelor's Degree, it doesn't get taken away from you if you aren't actively in that field. Assuming it's certified by a recognised university, other universities wouldn't demote you or retest for it either.

I see it as the same way in Taekwondo.

When people come to train with me, I'm not going to take away the rank that someone else (or myself but before a gap) gave them. They may have to stay at that rank for a long while before they're ready to test again. I may need to work through getting them Kukkiwon certification if they don't have it.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Comparing degrees in a physical science to a bachelors degree, medical doctorate is probably not really accurate. I will give you a for instance. Say you get a Bachelors degree but never practice in that field. Four, six of ten years go by and you just may have a really hard time getting work in that field. Sure you have the degree but not the skills in that field and that field may have passed you by. I am intimately familiar with people who have medical degree's. If they are not practicing ie. seeing patients they get rusty pretty quick. Four years out and they are going to have a hard time working in that field not impossible but hard. Not to mention to just stay in that field every year they must do continuing medical education and get more training. They also in the US have to be constantly studying for their next set of boards. Frankly, I would not want to see a doctor that took four years off. I do not like equating collegiate degrees to a black belt. Unless of course the university degree is in an applied physical science. (then we are getting closer) Now if we compare martial practice with an athlete. We will say a professional or even an amature athlete if they take off even a year in football, basketball, baseball, etc. they may never get back to the level they were at or they may. Physical skill sets diminish quickly if you are not using them. Can you get those skill sets back? Most of the time but not always. As Dirty Dog mentioned there is no one size fits all in this situation and each individual situation needs to be evaluated based on all of the dynamics involved. In IRT I do not believe in taking ranks away for any reason and I have a big problem with people that do this but if someone leaves for a long period and then comes back they need to take it upon themselves to get back to where they were. They need to own where they are at and work very hard to bring their skills up to speed. That is some of the responsibility that they shed by taking such a long break! So I would fall in the case by case basis as not a one size fits all!
 

Kong Soo Do

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It depends. There's just no way to give a one-size-fits-none answer.
If you still perform at your prior rank, then there's really no issue. If you can't, then why would you want to wear a belt you don't deserve?
It all comes down to performance.

With respect, I'm going to disagree. We're apparently talking about the same type of TKD according to the OP. If the OP had earned a specific rank then they are that specific rank for life. There is no expiration date on a Dan certification. At least not for a legitimate art. Otherwise the KKW would have to take back the millions of Dan certificates given to children and young adults in Korea that got their BB (in a year or less) and then went on to other interests. Since that is the bulk of the KKW's Dan numbers, I don't see that happening.

Same with someone getting an injury. Perhaps someone isn't able to kick quite as well as they use to due to age and/or injury. Does this invalidate their rank? No. Once someone has earned the rank it is theirs for life. Promotion to the next Dan grade of course depends on continued training or in this case, resumed training.

Going to a new art is a different story, but from the OP this is not the case in this situation.
 

Dirty Dog

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With respect, I'm going to disagree. We're apparently talking about the same type of TKD according to the OP. If the OP had earned a specific rank then they are that specific rank for life. There is no expiration date on a Dan certification. At least not for a legitimate art. Otherwise the KKW would have to take back the millions of Dan certificates given to children and young adults in Korea that got their BB (in a year or less) and then went on to other interests. Since that is the bulk of the KKW's Dan numbers, I don't see that happening.

Same with someone getting an injury. Perhaps someone isn't able to kick quite as well as they use to due to age and/or injury. Does this invalidate their rank? No. Once someone has earned the rank it is theirs for life. Promotion to the next Dan grade of course depends on continued training or in this case, resumed training.

Going to a new art is a different story, but from the OP this is not the case in this situation.

Reread what I wrote. While I agree there's no expiration date on a certificate, there IS an expiration date on knowledge. If you don't train, it's not that far in the future. If you do, then it can be postponed indefinitely.

But what I said, and have said many times, is that it's better to wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than to wear a black belt and have people wonder why.

It's not a question of what you CAN wear. It's a question of what you SHOULD wear.

If you can't perform at the level, don't wear the belt. Performance, in this context, isn't limited to the merely physical. The knowledge and understanding of the concepts and principals involved is in many ways more important.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.
 

Dirty Dog

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I always accept people at the rank they achieved.

Once you have a Bachelor's Degree, it doesn't get taken away from you if you aren't actively in that field. Assuming it's certified by a recognised university, other universities wouldn't demote you or retest for it either.

I see it as the same way in Taekwondo.

When people come to train with me, I'm not going to take away the rank that someone else (or myself but before a gap) gave them. They may have to stay at that rank for a long while before they're ready to test again. I may need to work through getting them Kukkiwon certification if they don't have it.

So you'd hire an engineer to build you a suspension bridge despite the fact that they had done NO engineering in ten years?
You'd go to a surgeon who hadn't touched a patient in ten years?
You'd let a mechanic rebuild the engine in your new Ferrari, even though the last time he turned a wrench bias ply tires were all anybody used, and gas stations pumped the gas for you?

Personally, I'm not doing any if those. If you would, can I have your Ferrari after you die under the knife? I promise to rebuild it properly.



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.
 

andyjeffries

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So you'd hire an engineer to build you a suspension bridge despite the fact that they had done NO engineering in ten years?
You'd go to a surgeon who hadn't touched a patient in ten years?
You'd let a mechanic rebuild the engine in your new Ferrari, even though the last time he turned a wrench bias ply tires were all anybody used, and gas stations pumped the gas for you?

You're taking what I said a bit differently from how I wrote/intended it, so let me clarify...

I'm not saying I would hire someone who had just returned from a 10 year layoff as an instructor at my club. Nor am I saying I would consider someone fresh from a layoff as my instructor. However, as the master instructor in a club I would accept a student at their rank, work with them to get ready to continue on their journey and ensure they grade from where they left not demote them in rank that someone else (or I a while ago) gave them.

So, in your terms:

1) As a manager of an engineering company contracted to work on building a suspension bridge (given this isn't a one man job), I would hire them and ensure they work with a senior engineer that can help them refresh their skills.

2) As an owner of a medical facility, I'd hire them as an assistant surgeon, to work alongside my best surgeons to refresh their skills while doing any newer certifications required.

3) As an owner of a garage, I'd hire them to do maintenance on vehicles while learning how more modern engines go, to prepare them for being able to do full rebuilds in the future.

I've never said that I consider them the same as an active student/instructor of the same rank, just that I don't consider them to be below their current rank and would let them keep it while training up for the next rank.
 

andyjeffries

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But what I said, and have said many times, is that it's better to wear a white belt and have people wonder why, than to wear a black belt and have people wonder why.

FWIW, I don't disagree with this - providing it's a personal decision by the practitioner and not enforced by the master.

I had a few years layoff, and when I came back to training I wore a tracksuit and trained as the lowest of the white belts. I had some coloured belts "correct" the way I held paddles until my master instructor told them that I was correct and my actual rank. That was funny :)

Also, my grandmaster when he was preparing for his 5th Dan (way back when) came down to training at our class (he wasn't active in our club at the time) and wore a white belt and stood at the back of the class while he was getting himself ready.
 

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