Curious how you would feel about...

[wingchun100]

You're taking what I said a bit differently from how I wrote/intended it, so let me clarify...

I'm not saying I would hire someone who had just returned from a 10 year layoff as an instructor at my club. Nor am I saying I would consider someone fresh from a layoff as my instructor. However, as the master instructor in a club I would accept a student at their rank, work with them to get ready to continue on their journey and ensure they grade from where they left not demote them in rank that someone else (or I a while ago) gave them.

So, in your terms:

1) As a manager of an engineering company contracted to work on building a suspension bridge (given this isn't a one man job), I would hire them and ensure they work with a senior engineer that can help them refresh their skills.

2) As an owner of a medical facility, I'd hire them as an assistant surgeon, to work alongside my best surgeons to refresh their skills while doing any newer certifications required.

3) As an owner of a garage, I'd hire them to do maintenance on vehicles while learning how more modern engines go, to prepare them for being able to do full rebuilds in the future.

I've never said that I consider them the same as an active student/instructor of the same rank, just that I don't consider them to be below their current rank and would let them keep it while training up for the next rank.

Very well-said.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You're taking what I said a bit differently from how I wrote/intended it, so let me clarify...

I'm not saying I would hire someone who had just returned from a 10 year layoff as an instructor at my club. Nor am I saying I would consider someone fresh from a layoff as my instructor. However, as the master instructor in a club I would accept a student at their rank, work with them to get ready to continue on their journey and ensure they grade from where they left not demote them in rank that someone else (or I a while ago) gave them.

So, in your terms:

1) As a manager of an engineering company contracted to work on building a suspension bridge (given this isn't a one man job), I would hire them and ensure they work with a senior engineer that can help them refresh their skills.

2) As an owner of a medical facility, I'd hire them as an assistant surgeon, to work alongside my best surgeons to refresh their skills while doing any newer certifications required.

3) As an owner of a garage, I'd hire them to do maintenance on vehicles while learning how more modern engines go, to prepare them for being able to do full rebuilds in the future.

I've never said that I consider them the same as an active student/instructor of the same rank, just that I don't consider them to be below their current rank and would let them keep it while training up for the next rank.

So in all of those cases, you'd hire them - but only at a lesser "rank" than they had earned before, and give them the opportunity to regain their skills. I agree with that completely.

But you didn't answer my question... can I have your Ferrari after you die under the knife of the out-of-practice surgeon? This is the key issue...

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So you'd hire an engineer to build you a suspension bridge despite the fact that they had done NO engineering in ten years? You'd go to a surgeon who hadn't touched a patient in ten years? You'd let a mechanic rebuild the engine in your new Ferrari, even though the last time he turned a wrench bias ply tires were all anybody used, and gas stations pumped the gas for you?

You're comparing professional degrees to a martial arts Dan ranking. Two things that really aren't comparable. Martial arts Dan ranking is subjective at best, not universal in scope and localized or limited in it's venue. This isn't the same as an engineer or surgeon at all. The OP was out of martial arts and then came back and picked it up again and you're comparing that to surgery? Um, no. That's pretty much an apple and duck-billed platypus comparison.

And again, looking at your statement;

If you can't perform at the level, don't wear the belt. Performance, in this context, isn't limited to the merely physical. The knowledge and understanding of the concepts and principals involved is in many ways more important.

This would cut out several million KKW members since the vast majority are/were children who were given a Dan cert in a year or less and then went on to soccer or whatever. Their skill level, even when active, has been called into question repeatedly on this and other forums by those that have seen them (either in person or via video). So the skill really wasn't impressive, they were in training for a fairly short duration and no longer train. So by your logic the KKW should take back their Dan ranks. Well, actually I agree but we both know that will never happen. And that's beside the point. The OP was at a specific Dan rank, came back and seems to be catching back up and even surpassing previous experience/skill levels. No surgery, no bridges so no problem.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So you'd hire an engineer to build you a suspension bridge despite the fact that they had done NO engineering in ten years?
You'd go to a surgeon who hadn't touched a patient in ten years?
You'd let a mechanic rebuild the engine in your new Ferrari, even though the last time he turned a wrench bias ply tires were all anybody used, and gas stations pumped the gas for you?

Personally, I'm not doing any if those. If you would, can I have your Ferrari after you die under the knife? I promise to rebuild it properly.

If you're going to compare a doctor or engineer to a martial artist, then their belt equivalent would be their degree. Even if they quit their profession and never practice it again, they still have their B.S. or M.D. - that never gets revoked. They may not be competent in their field after a certain length of time, just as a martial artist might not retain his skills after a sufficiently long layoff, but they still have the title.

Mind you, if a martial artist feels they have been out long enough that they have genuinely reverted back to the level of a white belt, then I don't have any problem with them self-demoting and starting over. For someone who got their black belt at age 12 and then dropped out of training for the next 15 years, that would probably be appropriate. For someone who is just a bit rusty, I don't see the point.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You're comparing professional degrees to a martial arts Dan ranking. Two things that really aren't comparable. Martial arts Dan ranking is subjective at best, not universal in scope and localized or limited in it's venue. This isn't the same as an engineer or surgeon at all. The OP was out of martial arts and then came back and picked it up again and you're comparing that to surgery? Um, no. That's pretty much an apple and duck-billed platypus comparison.

And again, looking at your statement;


This would cut out several million KKW members since the vast majority are/were children who were given a Dan cert in a year or less and then went on to soccer or whatever. Their skill level, even when active, has been called into question repeatedly on this and other forums by those that have seen them (either in person or via video). So the skill really wasn't impressive, they were in training for a fairly short duration and no longer train. So by your logic the KKW should take back their Dan ranks. Well, actually I agree but we both know that will never happen. And that's beside the point. The OP was at a specific Dan rank, came back and seems to be catching back up and even surpassing previous experience/skill levels. No surgery, no bridges so no problem.

If you're going to compare a doctor or engineer to a martial artist, then their belt equivalent would be their degree. Even if they quit their profession and never practice it again, they still have their B.S. or M.D. - that never gets revoked. They may not be competent in their field after a certain length of time, just as a martial artist might not retain his skills after a sufficiently long layoff, but they still have the title.

Mind you, if a martial artist feels they have been out long enough that they have genuinely reverted back to the level of a white belt, then I don't have any problem with them self-demoting and starting over. For someone who got their black belt at age 12 and then dropped out of training for the next 15 years, that would probably be appropriate. For someone who is just a bit rusty, I don't see the point.

Gentlemen, please. Go back and re-read. I did not compare a martial arts rank and a college degree. I responded to Andyjeffries comparison of a martial arts rank and a college degree. And I did so in a way that, I thought, made it clear that I think it's a fairly silly thing to compare.

Can we please respond to what I said, rather than some pie-in-the-sky argument that I never made?
Thanks.

I'll say again the same thing I say every time this perenial subject crops up (and what I've said at least twice in this thread)...

It's better to wear a white belt and have people wonder why than to wear a black belt and have people wonder why.
I've never said anybody ought to be stripped of their belt because of a layoff.

 

[andyjeffries]

So in all of those cases, you'd hire them - but only at a lesser "rank" than they had earned before, and give them the opportunity to regain their skills. I agree with that completely.

The difference in my mind though (that I'm apparently still failing to make clear) is that when hiring someone to do a job, they would need to be current or operating at a lower level while brushing up. When accepting a student I accept them at their current rank and they don't promote again until they meet my standards. There's a world of difference in the two situations, when someone is being paid to do a job and when someone is joining a social group in a learning environment.

But you didn't answer my question... can I have your Ferrari after you die under the knife of the out-of-practice surgeon? This is the key issue...

LOL. You can hypothetically have my hypothetical Ferrari after I die under the knife of a hypothetical out-of-practice surgeon, knock yourself out...

 

[msmitht]

Someone who had substantial tkd experience(10 yrs) but took time off(5yrs) coming back and starting right where they let off? this was my exact situation. I appreciate my instructor immensely (not the same one, I actually used to train with this guy at someone else's studio) for letting me stay at my rank. I was a second degree before and in 7 months being back, I have solidified all previously learned material plus learned three new forms and 44 new sparring combos. I now just have juche left to learn before testing for third dan(and obviously more practicing). Most people would have looked at my time off and said I would need to start over, but my new instructor believed I could handle it.

Had a 7 year old red belt come in. Her mom said she had been out for 6 months but had been ready for her poom exam at old dojang. DIDNT REMEMBER ANYTHING!
Took me 2 years to teach her required techniques. She started to remember about 6-8 months in and is now,2 years later, ready for her poom.
Each case is different.

 

[granfire]

Had a 7 year old red belt come in. Her mom said she had been out for 6 months but had been ready for her poom exam at old dojang. DIDNT REMEMBER ANYTHING!
Took me 2 years to teach her required techniques. She started to remember about 6-8 months in and is now,2 years later, ready for her poom.
Each case is different.

Probably never knew it well to begin with...
Plus, at that age, that's like a lifetime!

 

[Archtkd]

Had a 7 year old red belt come in. Her mom said she had been out for 6 months but had been ready for her poom exam at old dojang. DIDNT REMEMBER ANYTHING!
Took me 2 years to teach her required techniques. She started to remember about 6-8 months in and is now,2 years later, ready for her poom.
Each case is different.

What would you have done if she'd already been issued a Kukkiwon poom certificate?

 

[IcemanSK]

What would you have done if she'd already been issued a Kukkiwon poom certificate?

I'll tell you what I did in that situation. An 8 year old 1st poom came in, but couldn't present a certificate or remember ANY of his poomsae. (He'd been out for 6 months after paying $500.00 for a KKW cert. he never received). I told mom to bug the old master every Friday with a phone call until they got the certificate. 2 months after the first phone call, they received a legitimate KKW poom cert. (I checked). We spent the next 6 months getting him up to speed on his technique & poomsae. Then he left. Because he had a KKW cert. I let him keep his rank, despite the level he was at when he arrived.

He wasn't going to advance until his ability was there. That's my thought. If they have BB rank, they keep it. But they cannot advance until they are up to my standard. What would I do if the person WAS up on everything & asked to test when they arrived? I'd say they'd have to be around a minimum of 6 months before I'd consider testing them (more likely, a year). I'd want them to be around awhile before I tested them.