Cross-Pollination

[Bill Mattocks]

I happened to meet a coworker yesterday who is a high-dan belt holder in a form of Tang Soo Do, which I believe is called Soo Bahk Do. We talked a bit, and he mentioned that his instructor liked Isshin-Ryu bo kata and teaches it to his students. As an Isshin-Ryu student, I thought this was really cool and a nice compliment. I'd like to visit his dojo someday just to watch and see how they do things there.

We do similar things in our dojo; sensei will from time to time show us something he picked up from another style and teach it to us, telling us it's not Isshin-Ryu, it's from X style, but he likes it and so here it is.

How about the rest of you? Cross-pollinate any? What are your thoughts on learning from other styles?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I happened to meet a coworker yesterday who is a high-dan belt holder in a form of Tang Soo Do, which I believe is called Soo Bahk Do. We talked a bit, and he mentioned that his instructor liked Isshin-Ryu bo kata and teaches it to his students. As an Isshin-Ryu student, I thought this was really cool and a nice compliment. I'd like to visit his dojo someday just to watch and see how they do things there.

We do similar things in our dojo; sensei will from time to time show us something he picked up from another style and teach it to us, telling us it's not Isshin-Ryu, it's from X style, but he likes it and so here it is.

How about the rest of you? Cross-pollinate any? What are your thoughts on learning from other styles?

If its got good body mechanics, its all kenpo (martial art); so, each style is another way of looking at the same old stuff.
Sean

 

[harlan]

Good post.

Yes. I like to say that our goju is 'informed' by Feeding Crane (kung fu) with ideas about movement, power generation, and bunkai.

 

[MJS]

I happened to meet a coworker yesterday who is a high-dan belt holder in a form of Tang Soo Do, which I believe is called Soo Bahk Do. We talked a bit, and he mentioned that his instructor liked Isshin-Ryu bo kata and teaches it to his students. As an Isshin-Ryu student, I thought this was really cool and a nice compliment. I'd like to visit his dojo someday just to watch and see how they do things there.

We do similar things in our dojo; sensei will from time to time show us something he picked up from another style and teach it to us, telling us it's not Isshin-Ryu, it's from X style, but he likes it and so here it is.

How about the rest of you? Cross-pollinate any? What are your thoughts on learning from other styles?

The school that I attend has what they call 'Friendship Seminars' usually on a yearly basis. There are instructors from various arts, ie: Kenpo, Aikido, some Japanese styles, etc., that all get together, usually for about 7hrs or so, and all of the insts. teach an hour or so segment, sharing varous aspects of their art.

IMO, I think this is nice, because its a nice way to a) get in some good training, b) get the chance to see a variety of arts, c) and the best part, IMO, is that there're no egos. Everyone is there for the same reason...to share and learn with each other.

As for me...there are many times, during the Kenpo classes that I teach, that I'll give them something from Arnis, be it a knife disarm, club disarm, joint locks, etc. Of course, I always make a point of explaining where the stuff comes from.

 

[Noah_Legel]

My instructor has us do drills from Goju-Ryu and Wing Chun, and since he and I both started in Shuri-Ryu we do kata from that style occasionally.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My instructor has us do drills from Goju-Ryu and Wing Chun, and since he and I both started in Shuri-Ryu we do kata from that style occasionally.

Yes, I forgot to mention that in our dojo, we do Sanchin kata in both the 'Isshin-Ryu' manner and the 'Goju-Ryu' manner. I am told that it is out of respect for Goju-Ryu, from which our founder got the kata. I like the Goju-Ryu way of doing it.

 

[Aikikitty]

My Aikido sensei also has a background in two different styles of Karate and he also spent a couple decades as a police officer. One of the senior students sometimes co-teaches the class and he has an extensive Korean & Chinese martial art background. Both of them contribute and incorporate techniques and principles into our class. In fact, recently, my sensei decided to have the senpai teach us strictly Tae Kwon Do basics at the beginning of the class. I'm really enjoying it--minus the being made to do pushups because I'm repeatedly messing up the same stuff too much. I love having other stuff thrown in as it's an awesome opportunity to learn other styles and I'll eagerly accept anything that helps me to become a better & more rounded martial artist. It was interesting though when I went to an Aikido seminar last year and my "style" was different from everyone else's. I got a few "What in the world are you doing?!?" and "What style of Aikido do you do again???"

 

[punisher73]

It can be both good and bad IMO.

I have seen people add stuff to what they teach, but it doesn't flow with the base style. For example, adding a few joint locks from aikido to sport based TKD. The basis and flow isn't there for that to work for most people. Or they just take the external physical techniques and add on without the underlying principles of why something is done. For example, many styles use very different power generation methods, if they are different you are just going to be watering down what you add because it has lost it's essence and you are just copying the shell.

I think if you are going to add something than it should be seamless to what you are currently doing. It should really have the feel of seeing a new application of existing material than learning something different.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

The philosophy in our dojang is to take all you can from other arts and add it to your knowledge of Taekwondo. Every martial artist I have ever trained with, I have been able to pick up something useful and add it to my repertoire.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I agree with Punisher. Whatever you add, it should be added to your knowledge base of your art. Don't let these new techs take away from the foundation or basics of your style.

 

[Balrog]

How about the rest of you? Cross-pollinate any? What are your thoughts on learning from other styles?

My thoughts: pick one style and stick with it as your core, your foundation. Learn from other styles and enhance your core, much like taking elective courses in college to support the courses in your major. It makes you a more well-rounded martial artist.

Example. Last Sunday evening, a friend who trains in another style called and asked if they could use my floor space for a while. They normally train outdoors but it was 35 degrees and raining like hell. I said sure. We all got together. One of the guys was an Gung Fu master and that man has probably forgotten more martial arts than I've learned. I've been doing this for nearly 30 years, but I felt like a White Belt that night. I didn't really learn anything "new", it was just seeing the same concepts presented from a different point of view. Plus I got to watch a damn good instructor in action, which will only improve my teaching skills. He and I were trading back and forth and I'm glad to say that he picked up a couple of things from me as well.

There is no superior martial art. There are only superior martial artists and we should learn from them every chance we get.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes. I like to say that our goju is 'informed' by Feeding Crane (kung fu) with ideas about movement, power generation, and bunkai.

And this would be an excellent example of choosing proper ideas to blend together considering the close relationship southern Chinese crane systems have with Okinawan karate. I have no objections to this type of mixing and I would support it fully.

At the same time, I've seen people teach a hodge-podge of martial arts, a little bit of this or that, sometimes even with weird combinations like TKD with wing chun. It makes me think the instructor never stuck around long enough with a single teacher to learn anything substantial in one system.

The example Bill mentioned also makes a lot of sense. I teach kobudo from time-to-time at my friend's tae kwon do dojang. It's a good pairing since TKD has no native weapons study, and the students' empty hand skills can benefit from the study of weapons simultaneously.

 

[harlan]

Funny you mention it. We train with a TKD group that learned Matayoshi kobudo at the same time/same teachers as our Goju folk, and there are subtle differences (mostly stances). Kinda like, same father, different mother.

The example Bill mentioned also makes a lot of sense. I teach kobudo from time-to-time at my friend's tae kwon do dojang. It's a good pairing since TKD has no native weapons study, and the students' empty hand skills can benefit from the study of weapons simultaneously.

 

[punisher73]

And this would be an excellent example of choosing proper ideas to blend together considering the close relationship southern Chinese crane systems have with Okinawan karate. I have no objections to this type of mixing and I would support it fully.

At the same time, I've seen people teach a hodge-podge of martial arts, a little bit of this or that, sometimes even with weird combinations like TKD with wing chun. It makes me think the instructor never stuck around long enough with a single teacher to learn anything substantial in one system.

I have seen many people complain about the teaching of two arts at the same time that are unrelated. Whatever the person's base style is taints/colors how the others styles are done. Sticking with the previous example, the WC is done with a TKD flavor to it because that was the instructors filter while learning it. The WC stylists will notice that there are many subtle differences in it that take away from what the style was designed to do because of different models of power generation, fighting distance, fighting concepts etc. You really can't have two different models of combat mixed together like that IMO without diluting one of them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have seen many people complain about the teaching of two arts at the same time that are unrelated. Whatever the person's base style is taints/colors how the others styles are done. Sticking with the previous example, the WC is done with a TKD flavor to it because that was the instructors filter while learning it. The WC stylists will notice that there are many subtle differences in it that take away from what the style was designed to do because of different models of power generation, fighting distance, fighting concepts etc. You really can't have two different models of combat mixed together like that IMO without diluting one of them.

I was thinking less about teaching two arts at the same time as much as I was thinking of learning things that are from other styles.

An example; we practice a form of 'taikyoku' kata in our dojo. It's not part of Isshin-Ryu, and we're not required to learn it to advance in rank, nor are we told it is part of Isshin-Ryu. We have one sensei who likes to teach it, and he is very clear that it comes from outside of Isshin-Ryu, but he likes the moves contained in it. So what is the harm in learning it? It doesn't damage our style at all as far as I can tell.

By the same token, our main instructor went to a seminar and learned 'oar' or 'eku' kata. He brought it back with him and has been showing it to a couple of the senior black belts who are interested in learning it. Again, not our style, but what's the harm? Nobody is forced to learn it and it doesn't impact our usual bo kata that I'm aware of.

When learning bunkai for various kata, sometimes Sensei will show us an application that he picked up somewhere else. Bunkai is hardly limited to a given style, I think, but if he learned it from an aikidoka or a judo artist, he tells us that. Good stuff, really.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Knowledge is knowledge and if it can be incorporated into what I already know I'm all for it.
Giving students a view of other arts only opens their eyes to the wide world of the arts.

 

[seasoned]

I happened to meet a coworker yesterday who is a high-dan belt holder in a form of Tang Soo Do, which I believe is called Soo Bahk Do. We talked a bit, and he mentioned that his instructor liked Isshin-Ryu bo kata and teaches it to his students. As an Isshin-Ryu student, I thought this was really cool and a nice compliment. I'd like to visit his dojo someday just to watch and see how they do things there.

We do similar things in our dojo; sensei will from time to time show us something he picked up from another style and teach it to us, telling us it's not Isshin-Ryu, it's from X style, but he likes it and so here it is.

How about the rest of you? Cross-pollinate any? What are your thoughts on learning from other styles?

I feel that we can enhance our own art by being open to other ideas. Okinawan GoJu as a stand alone art, has much within the kata, and by exposing ourself to other like minded arts, we gain valuable insight into our base art.:asian: