Tang Soo Do and Karate (not Shotokan)

[Makalakumu]

Hwang Kee learned martial arts from many different styles of karate. In fact, if you look at his book, Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Vol. One, he lists a number of forms that come from all kinds of karate ryu. A large part of the TSD curriculum is inspired by Shotokan. However, how much is coming from other styles of karate?

 

[dancingalone]

Hmm, I thought his only formal training in karate came from Lee, Won Kuk. This means Shotokan. I am not aware that Hwang, Kee learned karate in person from anyone else. It's been speculated that he learned a lot from books and may have studied a copy of the Karate-Do Kyohan.

Obviously, he had training in other arts aside from karate, perhaps Yang Tai Chi Chuan.

I do not believe him listing all these karate forms in his book meant that he actually knew and practiced them. For purposes of discussion, could you list them? I vaguely remember they include a few outside of the usual Shotokan canon.

 

[JWLuiza]

I wonder if he just pulled the names from other available resources and didn't actually have versions of those forms.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here are the forms he lists in Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Vol. 1 on page 352-353. He presents two lists.

The first list he notes, comes from the We Ka Ryu Style. He claims these were influenced by the southern Chinese schools, and are characterized by speed, aggressiveness, dynamic action, and spontaneity.

1. Kee Cho Hyung Il Boo
2. Kee Cho Hyung Ee Boo
3. Kee Cho Hyung Sam Boo
4. Pyung Ahn Cho Dan
5. Pyung Ahn Ee Dan
6. Pyung Ahn Sam Dan
7. Pyung Ahn Sa Dan
8. Pyung Ahn Oh Dan
9. Bassai Dae
10. Bassai So
11. Chin Do
12. Oh Sip Sa Bo
13. Wang Shu
14. Tjin
15. So Rim Jang Kwan - ?
16. Dam Toi - ?
17. Kong Sang Koon Dae
18. Kong Sang Koon So
19. Rohaee Cho Dan - Tomari Te
20. Rohaee Ee Dan - Tomari Te
21. Rohaee Sam Dan - Tomari Te
22. Eesip Sa
23. Woon Shu - ?

The following list, he notes, comes from the Ne Ga Ryu Style, which he claims were influenced by the northern Chinese schools and are characterized by deliberateness, stability, fluid motion, and a slower and more quiet power.

1. Tsan Tjin - Naha Te
2. Jun Jang - Naha Te
3. Ssi San - Naha Te
4. Ssi Boai - Naha Te
5. Bae Rin Bba - Naha Te
6. SsanSsi Bbai - Naha Te
7. Sei San - Naha Te and Shuri Te
8. So Jin
9. Sai Hoo Ah - Naha Te
10. Goo Reung Hoo Ah - Naha Te
11. Jin Toi
12. Ji On
13. Tae Kuk Kwon - ?
14. Nai Han Chi Cho Dan
15. Nai Han Chi Ee Dan
16. Nai Han Chi Sam Dan

I've boldfaced any non-Shotokan forms and attempted to note their origins. If I listed a question mark, I do not know or cannot recall their origins from memory. So, I guess we can see that TSD is drawing from many different styles of karate (and some Chinese martial arts). Feel free to add to this list if you would like. It looks like a good bit of the Goju Ryu syllabus is there.

 

[dancingalone]

I've boldfaced any non-Shotokan forms and attempted to note their origins. If I listed a question mark, I do not know or cannot recall their origins from memory. So, I guess we can see that TSD is drawing from many different styles of karate (and some Chinese martial arts). Feel free to add to this list if you would like. It looks like a good bit of the Goju Ryu syllabus is there.

I'm disinclined to believe Goju-ryu played much of a role if any in the development of Tang Soo Do. The lack of Sanchin training, complete absence of mawashi-uke in any of the accepted TSD forms, dearth of kakie exercises... The evidence, or lack thereof, connecting the two arts is pretty definitive to me. I'd also offer up the Chil Sung forms created by GM Hwang... Again, no Goju influence there to my eyes.

It looks like GM Hwang simply wanted to list all the known classical karate forms he knew of in his book. That in of itself is not evidence that he knew or practiced them.

Here's some of the translations I sounded through, not knowing Korean nor Japanese. The standard kata in Goju-ryu are well known: Sanchin, Gekisai Dai Ichi, Gekisai Dai Ni, Saifa, Seiunchin, Seipai, Shisochin, Sanseiru, Seisan, Kururunfa, Suparinpei, Tensho


Dam Toi = Tam Toi (a common beginner set with many variations across Chinese styles)
Rohaee = Rohai (Funakoshi Sensei is thought to have created the Shotokan kata Meikyo using elements from the Okinawan Rohai kata)
Woon Shu = Unsu
Tsan Tjin = Sanchin
Jun Jang = Tensho
Sei San = Seisan
Goo Reung Hoo Ah = Kururunfa?

 

[Makalakumu]

It looks like GM Hwang simply wanted to list all the known classical karate forms he knew of in his book. That in of itself is not evidence that he knew or practiced them.

This is my first inclination, however, I am open minded to any evidence to the contrary. I certainly have no firm opinion.

Here is something else to consider. Rohai is a common form that is still practiced today in many TSD dojangs. This form did not come from Shotokan. They don't practice it. They practice Meikyo, which is a combination of various kata principles related to Rohai.

Therefore, he must have learned it from somewhere else. To my knowledge, this kata was not portrayed in any of the books that he studied or would have been published at the time. This means that he had at least one different karate teacher. Who was it?

Could it also have been possible that he trained in Goju? Or maybe Shito Ryu?

 

[dancingalone]

Here is something else to consider. Rohai is a common form that is still practiced today in many TSD dojangs. This form did not come from Shotokan. They don't practice it. They practice Meikyo, which is a combination of various kata principles related to Rohai.

Therefore, he must have learned it from somewhere else. To my knowledge, this kata was not portrayed in any of the books that he studied or would have been published at the time. This means that he had at least one different karate teacher. Who was it?

That is an interesting point. Shudokan karate does a version of Matsumura Rohai as well. Perhaps there was an informal connection somehow. We know about the Yoon, Byung In and the other Korean gentleman who I can never recall who studied at the Shudokan...

Could it also have been possible that he trained in Goju? Or maybe Shito Ryu?

I really doubt Goju-ryu judging by what Tang Soo Do looks like today. I also doubt Shito-ryu played a role either, but I am not as vehement about it.

 

[dancingalone]

Side note, I guess but why all the guess work about this? Did the information about what GM Hwang learned from who die with him?

 

[JWLuiza]

That is an interesting point. Shudokan karate does a version of Matsumura Rohai as well. Perhaps there was an informal connection somehow. We know about the Yoon, Byung In and the other Korean gentleman who I can never recall who studied at the Shudokan...



I really doubt Goju-ryu judging by what Tang Soo Do looks like today. I also doubt Shito-ryu played a role either, but I am not as vehement about it.

I agree with your point. Kim Ki Whang was a student of Toyama Kanken and was one of the first Korean's bearing the TSD flag in the states though never trained under Hwang Ki. He may be the source of the Rohai connection.

 

[Makalakumu]

An interesting note about mawashi-uke. This move is actually shown in the early Chil Sung hyungs and it is shown in Wansu kata. Perhaps, it doesn't look exactly like the goju version because of the time that has passed and the misunderstandings that have built up. It is there, however. Something to think about.

 

[Makalakumu]

I agree with your point. Kim Ki Whang was a student of Toyama Kanken and was one of the first Korean's bearing the TSD flag in the states though never trained under Hwang Ki. He may be the source of the Rohai connection.

Is there any video of the Rohai that Toyama Kanken taught?

 

[dancingalone]

An interesting note about mawashi-uke. This move is actually shown in the early Chil Sung hyungs and it is shown in Wansu kata. Perhaps, it doesn't look exactly like the goju version because of the time that has passed and the misunderstandings that have built up. It is there, however. Something to think about.

I don't see anything resembling mawashi-uke in this rendition of Yunbi. Do you have a better example than I was able to find? [yt]KFNUSpxn4mc[/yt]

Regardless, I'm not aware of any evidence connecting Goju-ryu to Tang Soo Do. We don't see any TSD federations include common workhorse Goju kata like Seiunchin or Sanchin as a mainstream study after all. Again no kakie, no sanchin body training, no modern survival of hojo undo in TSD... The case is overwhelmingly against a Goju/TSD connection. Furthermore, I bet if you show 10 different Goju-ryu instructor level dans some key TSD hyung like Kong San Koon or Pal Sek they'd all say they don't see any Goju-ryu in it. This isn't meant to be a disparagement of TSD by the way. I think it stands on its own as a completely good style in of itself.

I think a possible Shudokan link has much more possibility and it merits more investigation.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't see anything resembling mawashi-uke in this rendition of Yunbi. Do you have a better example than I was able to find? [yt]KFNUSpxn4mc[/yt]

That is one of the more interesting versions of Wansu I've seen. LOL! It is still there, though, but it's highly stylized. At the end, right before the 360 degree hop. It looks like he is stepping forward and moving his hands up and down alternately. Imagine the move with more circular motions.

At any rate, it's not a block you see taught in many TSD dojangs. My teacher's school is the only place I have seen it taught that way.

Regardless, I'm not aware of any evidence connecting Goju-ryu to Tang Soo Do. We don't see any TSD federations include common workhorse Goju kata like Seiunchin or Sanchin as a mainstream study after all. Again no kakie, no sanchin body training, no modern survival of hojo undo in TSD... The case is overwhelmingly against a Goju/TSD connection. Furthermore, I bet if you show 10 different Goju-ryu instructor level dans some key TSD hyung like Kong San Koon or Pal Sek they'd all say they don't see any Goju-ryu in it. This isn't meant to be a disparagement of TSD by the way. I think it stands on its own as a completely good style in of itself.

Yeah, this is probably the case, I just wanted to throw the question out there because the kata were listed at TSD hyungs. It's interesting to explore the rationale behind it.

I think a possible Shudokan link has much more possibility and it merits more investigation.

Definitely! I think we may actually have a link outside of Shotokan here!

 

[clfsean]

Here are the forms he lists in Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Vol. 1 on page 352-353. He presents two lists.

<<snipped>>

15. So Rim Jang Kwan - ?
16. Dam Toi - ?

As it's already been mentioned, Dam Toi is Tan Tui is Mandarin. It's used as a building exercise by many northern CMA's. At one time, it was a stand alone system by itself, but it's basics were so strong in building the required skills for related arts that were deeper in content, many adopted the basic road set as a primer. It'd be interesting to see which one he claimed.

Unless my non-existing Korean to Chinese translation skills have failed (which is quite likely) #15 translates to Shaolin Chang Quan, which just means Shaolin Long Fist. That doesn't say much of anything about "what" was studied.

The following list, he notes, comes from the Ne Ga Ryu Style, which he claims were influenced by the northern Chinese schools and are characterized by deliberateness, stability, fluid motion, and a slower and more quiet power.

1. Tsan Tjin - Naha Te

Never heard of a "Ne Ga Ryu" critter. What is that?

Now, again as previously mentioned, the "Tsan Tjin" translates over to Sanchin from Okinawa. As it's called in southern China, "Saam Chien". There's nothing northern about Saam Chien or remotely northern in where you find it. It's found in only southern styles coming pretty much from Fujian/Zhejiang & on southwards. I've never seen it in a northern style, unless a northerner learned it & took it north. But the basic dynamics of the Chinese Saam Chien don't exactly jive with the northern practices. It's counter productive to how the northern style practitioners develop energy & related skills.

 

[puunui]

Side note, I guess but why all the guess work about this? Did the information about what GM Hwang learned from who die with him?

I would say that there is a lot of guesswork because from almost the beginning, GM Hwang has been less than truthful about his martial arts background. He was misstating his background to such a degree even back in the 1940's that GM SON Duk Sung confronted GM Hwang about it, GM Hwang ran away from GM Son, GM Son caught up with him at some elementary school and proceeded to beat him up over the lies he was spreading.

 

[Makalakumu]

I would say that there is a lot of guesswork because from almost the beginning, GM Hwang has been less than truthful about his martial arts background. He was misstating his background to such a degree even back in the 1940's that GM SON Duk Sung confronted GM Hwang about it, GM Hwang ran away from GM Son, GM Son caught up with him at some elementary school and proceeded to beat him up over the lies he was spreading.

Whoa! That's insane!

Um, do you know of any specific link to the Shudokan?

 

[puunui]

Um, do you know of any specific link to the Shudokan?

Specific link to the Shudokan to what?

 

[puunui]

Whoa! That's insane!

This is mentioned in the Modern History book in the Moo Duk Kwan section:

After Independence Day, the Moo Duk Kwan started as the
"Transportation by Rail Committee Tang Soo Do Bu" (Woon Soo
Boo Boo Woo Hwe - Tang Soo Do Boo) at the railroad system at
YongSan Station, Seoul.

The Department of Transportation allowed the Tang Soo Do Dojang
as a traffic service, but the exact date is unknown. We only know that
it was founded after 1946.

HWANG Kee claimed that he learned Kuk Sool when he worked for
the Southern Manchuria Railroad in 1935, but other Taekwondo
seniors denied this claim saying that there was no evidence.

 

[Makalakumu]

Specific link to the Shudokan to what?

To Hwang Kee. We were wondering if he received any training from them, because our version of Rohai is NOT Shotokan and may have come from them. No body in this thread knows for sure.

 

[puunui]

To Hwang Kee. We were wondering if he received any training from them, because our version of Rohai is NOT Shotokan and may have come from them. No body in this thread knows for sure.

GM HWANG Kee was involved with all three of the known Korean born Shudokan practitioners in Korea, GM YOON Kwe Byung, GM YOON Byung In and GM KIM Ki Whang. Gm Hwang and GM YOON Kwe Byung were close in the early 1960's and would go on exchange trips to Japan together. GM YOON Byung In would attend Moo Duk Kwan testings during the late 40's, and we already talked about GM Kim. GM YOON Byung In taught a form called Jangkwon, which I believe is also a name of a form that is part of the Moo Duk Kwan curriculum. I don't know if it is the same Jangkwon, but I have heard that GM Yoon taught Gm Hwang that form. I get the feeling the GM Hwang was the type to learn from anyone so it could have been any of the three Shudokan practitioners.