Community Service for Black Belts

[Hot Lunch]

Another thing it informed them of was their responsibilities outside of the dojo. If they were getting into fights and being A-holes they were going to get their ash handed to them in a lunchbox.

The place wasn’t for everybody.

It amuses me that people think there are no repercussions for bad behavior outside of the dojo.

People here? I understand having a list of "don'ts" outside of the dojo. Having a list of "dos" is the problem.

 

[Buka]

People here? I understand having a list of "don'ts" outside of the dojo. Having a list of "dos" is the problem.

I never said people “here.”

You do make a good point though. About the difference between the “don’ts” and “dos.”

 

[Hot Lunch]

I've met instructors who required a certain amount of experience in other arts to receive a given rank in their system.

I'm not a fan of this, but I'd consider it begrudgingly acceptable if the instructor teaches more than one art, and you can practice that secondary art under your instructor.

That's likely more time-consuming than doing some volunteer work in the community, but I wouldn't expect anyone to call that cultish.

And more costly. That $125 monthly tuition just turned into $250.

 

[HighKick]

Yeah in that class time that Im paying for. Outside of that specific time I’m paying for they are nothing more than a normal person. I don’t do the whole hero worship of an instructor. Outside of martial arts they’re nothing special and if they want to tell me to go wash cars or bag groceries for free then honestly I’d just laugh at them

I don't know if you had a bad experience with a school/instructor or if you have created an incorrect stereotype or what, but you really ran with a very false narrative of what goes on.
'Special'. I would aver there are very few truly special people inside or outside the martial arts. Certainly, I am not one of them.

I am baffled. You will gladly take instruction from someone in an 'art', but you feel offended to work SIDE-BY-SIDE with the same like-minded people to help your community? That is pretty small-minded.
Yes, of course there is a clearly divided line between what a person pays for in regard to services (training) and anything extra-curricular. As I have said at least three times now, our community service efforts have zero to do with our curriculum or how people promote. This includes any black belt Dan levels.
Outreach efforts are made available to anyone and everyone to help out, the physical school is simply the vehicle. Nothing mystic or magical or godlike. Weird to even type that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There, fixed it for ya.

But it's not "outside what they signed up for." It's part of the program, which is what they signed up for.

But my point is that it's not a big deal at the time of sign-up, since they're not going to be dealing with that requirement for a couple of years (or much longer, in many circumstances). I didn't know what the BB test requirements were when I signed up. I could have asked and found out, but I didn't. It was in the manual I was given during my first class, though not in complete detail (enough to understand what was out there), but it didn't impact me for years. If I'd found out in my first month that the BB requirements were something I wasn't interested in, I'd have moved on somewhere in the intervening years.

I think the information should be available to those who are interested, but I don't think the instructor needs to discuss BB requirements (or anything else that's years off) before every student signs up. With something like community service requirements, it'd be nice to include something like "We are big on community involvement" when discussing the culture of the program with prospective students.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

lol no they’re not families at all. And if people genuinely want to volunteer then fine but that’s not what’s being talked about. We are saying about people saying that to get your next belt or whatever then you have to do this stuff and that is what is cultish whether that offends you or not I don’t care but I’m not being told what to do outside of classes I pay for just because some guy has a black belt

I think you misunderstand what a cult is. Having requirements outside the school doesn't require devotion to the leader, or anything else that's commonly seen as "cultish".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah in that class time that Im paying for. Outside of that specific time I’m paying for they are nothing more than a normal person. I don’t do the whole hero worship of an instructor. Outside of martial arts they’re nothing special and if they want to tell me to go wash cars or bag groceries for free then honestly I’d just laugh at them

Nothing in a community service requirement is about hero worship. And plenty of places require a level of skill at some point that can't be developed within the hours of the minimum number of classes per week someone has paid for. I never saw anyone make it to BB without either dedicating time outside classes, or taking extra classes.

But note, in neither case (extra training or community service) are they being required to do anything. It's just what they can choose to do if they want to rank up. They could continue training without pursuing rank if they choose. Which I did at times, when business demands meant I couldn't do the level of additional training needed to progress - I'd just hang out at a rank for a while until I could do what I needed to for that next rank.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What a weak, losing response. This is how a teenager responds when their mom tells them that they're gonna stink if they don't shower.


What do the parent's choices have to do with the child being evaluated?


Who's bashing community service?


I'll do it if and when I want to. Not because it's a condition of being rewarded something. In truth, making it a condition of a reward totally nullifies the "volunteer" part of "volunteer work." The only difference is that the compensation is something other than money.

See, what I think you're missing is that you could just nope out. That kind of program wouldn't be a good fit for you. It's not meant to be a fit for everyone. You seem to be treating it as a burden to you if you were in that school, but you could just not be in that school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not a fan of this, but I'd consider it begrudgingly acceptable if the instructor teaches more than one art, and you can practice that secondary art under your instructor.

And more costly. That $125 monthly tuition just turned into $250.

Yeah, there are down sides to this approach. The cost was the reason I decided not to go that route, though I really wanted to. I didn't like the idea of someone having their BB from me, without having outside influence from some other instructor and art. If the karate dojo I taught at for 2 years had lasted, that would have solved the problem - I'd have put the requirement in, and they could have fulfilled it at the same school. I'd have worked out a simple exchange with one of the karate instructors to make it free.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'm curious to know: regardless of age, are students made aware of this when they sign up? Or do they find out when they make brown belt?

My student handbook is given to new students / parents. the day of sign up. The last page is the waiver which is complete , torn off and returned to me. sets forth requirements, test fees etc. However there is a disclaimer that fees may change over time. Also, while they can get it sooner after about a year of training they get the National Org. Gup requirement book and later the Dan requirement book as they approach 2nd Gup. Only Black Belt candidates have community service requirements.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Those are the only things the parents signed up for.

Nope, see post #50 above.

 

[Earl Weiss]

On the other hand, especially for youth focused programs that tout personal development and growth as a facet or service... or the places using it as school credit... OK, I get it more there, but still, I trip over how the two really connect.

We teach lots of stuff that would not be part of something that is purely sport, Tenets, a student oath, IMO that is part of what separates TMA form sport which also does not have rank.

 

[Hot Lunch]

But note, in neither case (extra training or community service) are they being required to do anything. It's just what they can choose to do if they want to rank up. They could continue training without pursuing rank if they choose.

Holding rank hostage unless you do a particular thing that's not supposed to be transactional in the first place? Yeah, I can't get onboard with this.

 

[Holmejr]

Cult is a strong word that has a fairly defined definition. I think it’s being used out of context here, unless we move into leader worship.
In US high schools, you could raise your GPA by community service/volunteerism. It eventually became basically mandatory if you wanted to get into a top school. At that point is it volunteer? Hmmm.
Encouraging volunteerism and charity is a good thing. Making it mandatory is contrary to volunteerism or charity. Springing folks without prior disclosure is really unfair. At that point folks simply have a choice. Stay or go. Can you sue at that point for 5 years of dues? I suppose you can sue for most everything.

 

[Hot Lunch]

In US high schools, you could raise your GPA by community service/volunteerism.

Sounds like you're stating your own speculation as fact, because this has never been the case.

It simply looks good on a college application. Nothing more.

 

[Holmejr]

Sounds like you're stating your own speculation as fact, because this has never been the case.

It simply looks good on a college application. Nothing more.

Not completely speculation, but this isn’t a political forum so I can’t correct you…

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Holding rank hostage unless you do a particular thing that's not supposed to be transactional in the first place? Yeah, I can't get onboard with this.

That's an odd choice of view. Rank is always gated behind something - why does it bother you so much that it's gated behind something that serves the larger community.

Do you have the same view of, say, Eagle Scout rank?

 

[Bujingodai]

Hmmm, internal arguments with myself. Agreed that volunteer is negated with the being told to IMO. I figure that within a system that Wholey marked as ability to fight or technique only, well then that is what you get graded on. Some TMA, grade also based on the growing character of a student, becoming a better more educated person overall. Some actually seek that sort of thing. I do believe that it needs to be stated up front. I know our school, which has always been donation based have done car washes and so on to raise funds to buy mats etc etc. I of course did expect students to show and be there. You would also be right that it would colour ones view as to who came and who did not.
Certainly when that was a regular thing over the years. Some arts do look at personal development towards dan ranking as a sign of maturity and development as part of what it means to reach that level. I don't see anything wrong with that. Part and parcel to the art you pick. For sure, at some point prior to getting to that level you will have discovered if that system is for you or not.
I willingly did things for my school. I don't know if I was ever told to do anything. Could have, but I would have if it had been requested of me. But that was me and the way I looked at it

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Cult is a strong word that has a fairly defined definition. I think it’s being used out of context here, unless we move into leader worship.
In US high schools, you could raise your GPA by community service/volunteerism. It eventually became basically mandatory if you wanted to get into a top school. At that point is it volunteer? Hmmm.
Encouraging volunteerism and charity is a good thing. Making it mandatory is contrary to volunteerism or charity. Springing folks without prior disclosure is really unfair. At that point folks simply have a choice. Stay or go. Can you sue at that point for 5 years of dues? I suppose you can sue for most everything.

If it's actually "sprung" on someone, sure, that's an issue. I don't think anyone has suggested literally keeping it a secret. It's just not necessary to discuss all rank requirements when someone is signing up, unless someone is specifically curious about them.

As for having a requirement being contrary to volunteerism, it's contrary to an idealistic view of volunteerism. So far as I recall, nobody has said they'd require a specific volunteer duty, so this requirement encourages folks to go find volunteer work that interests them - which likely gets more people involved, beyond the rank requirement. Which is likely part of the point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sounds like you're stating your own speculation as fact, because this has never been the case.

It simply looks good on a college application. Nothing more.

Yeah, I haven't heard of that, though I could see some schools (or at least some teachers) doing that. Not a bad idea, actually, given that academic scores aren't a great predictor of job success.