The Acid Test

[Same Trick48]

Let’s substitute boxing for MMA if you find that’s less distasteful to you. How would your art fair against a really competent boxer? Does that outcome worry you? If yes, why? If no, why?

Kendo, I’d love to try kendo, is Kendo a sufficient acid test ?

 

[Same Trick48]

Once an art had been discredited in this way, you’d expect an actual ‘elite representative of the traditional system’ to step in and show how superior it actually if only to save face. Xu Xiaodong discredited several systems…made them a laughing stock, indeed. As an ‘elite representative of the traditional system’ of those systems, I’d have to step up! Perhaps it’s beneath them…

If I recall he only went on to challenge those who were purist to one TCMA especially TJQ .He probably wouldn’t have challenged you since have Karate experience (kumite competition?)

 

[Same Trick48]

Well he’s been humiliating enough for the Chinese Government to do their best to ‘ruin him’. When a your country’s dictatorship gets involved you’re in trouble, eh?

He(Xu) ran a scam hoping to promote his own “mma” school, handpicked 1(one) Taiji “master” no one(everyone) hadn’t heard of, picked some wing chun guy out of the blue cause Wing Chun gotten a swing in China (the IpMan movies) taking potential students from him.
Dishonesty isn’t awarded here in this country.

 

[Gyakuto103]

Kendo, I’d love to try kendo, is Kendo a sufficient acid test ?

I wouldn’t say so. Modern Kendo is probably one of the most restricted martial arts there is! You’re only allowed to attack three (four if you include the right wrist but only if your opponent is holding their sword above their head).

It’s great fun though and all the armour and gizmos etc are cool…until the armour starts to stink and it really does! I’ve walked into Kendo training halls and almost been knock back onto my **** by the stench

 

[Gyakuto103]

If I recall he only went on to challenge those who were purist to one TCMA especially TJQ .

I’m not sure I understand. I think a contest was announced, with prize money, and contestants volunteered themselves to take him on…and didn’t do very well!

He probably wouldn’t have challenged you since have Karate experience (kumite competition?)

He’d’ve flattened me is 0.0078 sec!

 

[Gyakuto103]

He(Xu) ran a scam hoping to promote his own “mma” school, handpicked 1(one) Taiji “master” no one(everyone) hadn’t heard of, picked some wing chun guy out of the blue cause Wing Chun gotten a swing in China (the IpMan movies) taking potential students from him.
Dishonesty isn’t awarded here in this country.

From where did you obtain this information?

If I were a true Wing Chun/Taiji master and saw my beloved art being misrepresented in the way you suggest, I’d feel duty bound, for the honour of my martial ancestors, to show the superiority of Chinese martial arts over the ‘Western pretenders’, and challenge Xu myself and attempt to show him the error of his ways, wouldn’t you? And yet they haven’t. I wonder why? Perhaps such petty trials are beneath them and their art and they don’t need to prove anything because their art is ancient.

 

[Gyakuto103]

When asked about why I do karate or how bad/tough I am or could I kick so-n-so’s butt, I’ve always told folks that karate gives me a 51/49 percent chance in a street fight!

I think that’s a very realistic assessment.

I’ve always had great balance (or at least I did when I was a few years younger) attributable to all those Friday and Saturday nights at the roller rink I reckon!

Oh no, not you as well?

I do remember one guy I was scared could take me out easily.
He was bigger than me, had great balance, no technique, and tons of natural fighting ability.
I saw him get in the center of a ring and watch him effortlessly take out at least ten guys one-by-one before he took a break.
One of the coolest things I’d ever seen.

I had a friend like that…just a natural fighter and athlete. I’m glad he was my friend.

After my first karate tournament around age 17-18, I totally lost faith in the whole ikken hissatsu single-blow, death-punch, kill-shot notion. During sparring, my older, bigger, more experienced opponent kicked with a lot of commitment.
I grabbed his leg and counter punched.
He fell and smacked his head on the hardwood floor.
His eyes rolled back in his head and his limbs went all stiff.
I was worried that he was going to die, but after an eternity of two to three minutes he was awake again and after five minutes was like nothing had even happened.

Oh my goodness. That must’ve been slightly disconcerting!

They awarded him the point and the match, but who really won the fight?

You should’ve punched him when he was stiffening (‘fencing’ - concussion to the brainstorm );you can punch a firm object harder than a floppy one

After that, I just kinda considered sparring a game of tag if it was tournament style, but if it was one or two minutes of uninterrupted technique and combo practice, then it was cool.

Yes that’s a good point.

And, as far as Aikido goes, it’s probably pretty worthless as a martial art until you do it for 10 years or more.

Quite a few more

I trained in it for six or eight months.
It was fun and a good workout.
The falling training is probably useful.
I think I could usefully apply some of the joint locks to someone on the ground.
The kicking and punching was a joke.
And I have real serious doubts that an Aikido guy of almost any level could grab my hand and throw me before I can punch through his liver and damage his inner child.

You have made said what most martial artists believe but are too diplomatic to articulate! I never would

Regardless, karate and aikido do not street fight like they train.
Heck, you see years of training in cool techniques fall apart at tournaments when everyone reverts to plain ol’ kicking and punching, and many times, that’s poorly done.
Now imagine what happens when it gets real.

So, yeah.
I do it for that 51/49 percent advantage.

I really enjoyed reading this insightful, sensible, measured post. Thank you!

 

[gspell68]

I think a lot of people just stick to what they know and enjoy. Principles sound nice on a mat, even if they don’t always survive real resistance.

Yep.
Like I said earlier, when it comes down to a real life situation, are you really going to risk a Laughing Monkey Steals Thunder technique or an Iron Tiger Shakes the Heavens that could easily turn into a Drunken Master Earth Strike that goes viral on YouTube or are you just going to K.I.S.S. and start punching and kicking?

 

[windwalker099102]

Yep.
Like I said earlier, when it comes down to a real life situation, are you really going to risk a Laughing Monkey Steals Thunder technique or an Iron Tiger Shakes the Heavens that could easily turn into a Drunken Master Earth Strike that goes viral on YouTube or are you just going to K.I.S.S. and start punching and kicking?

It depends on the level and depth of training.

In a real situation, people don’t choose techniques from a menu — they default to what has been trained to the point of reflex. A boxer defaults to boxing, a grappler to grappling, someone trained in a traditional system defaults to whatever has actually been internalized, not the names of techniques.

If training is deep and functional, the response will be simple, direct, and appropriate, regardless of whether it comes from boxing, MMA, or traditional practice. If training is shallow, even simple techniques will fail under pressure.

 

[gspell68]

It depends on the level and depth of training.

In a real situation, people don’t choose techniques from a menu — they default to what has been trained to the point of reflex. A boxer defaults to boxing, a grappler to grappling, someone trained in a traditional system defaults to whatever has actually been internalized, not the names of techniques.

If training is deep and functional, the response will be simple, direct, and appropriate, regardless of whether it comes from boxing, MMA, or traditional practice. If training is shallow, even simple techniques will fail under pressure.

Yep.
I know about 20 katas with a whole bunch of cool stuff in them, but just know, if someone comes at me on the street for real, my opening moves will probably be a kick in the junk, jab, reverse punch where possible, then repeat in no particular order other that target availability.

 

[Same Trick48]

I wouldn’t say so. Modern Kendo is probably one of the most restricted martial arts there is! You’re only allowed to attack three (four if you include the right wrist but only if your opponent is holding their sword above their head).

It’s great fun though and all the armour and gizmos etc are cool…until the armour starts to stink and it really does! I’ve walked into Kendo training halls and almost been knock back onto my **** by the stench

Mmm, yes perhaps, but you thought boxing would be a sufficient acid test, and that’s also quite restrictive to upper body targets and also you’ll probably as in kendo would wear head protective gear, and also thickly padded gloves…..So maybe not that big difference between the two.

And kendo do have its variants, something I was invited to a Kendo dojo to witness when I was in Okinawa years ago, like this in the two links here -





The common thread between police kendo and Itto-ryu, tied to the rigors of real-world duty | BUDO JAPAN - Japanese martial-arts



Gekiken – A bridge between old kenjutsu and modern sport Kendō | BUDO JAPAN - Japanese martial-arts


I really would like to try out Kendo, and I’m not really that into swords in my regular daily training…..maybe that’s why I would like to try it……

Stinky Kendo dojos, I don’t believe that, not in Japan

 

[Same Trick48]

From where did you obtain this information?

If I were a true Wing Chun/Taiji master and saw my beloved art being misrepresented in the way you suggest, I’d feel duty bound, for the honour of my martial ancestors, to show the superiority of Chinese martial arts over the ‘Western pretenders’, and challenge Xu myself and attempt to show him the error of his ways, wouldn’t you? And yet they haven’t. I wonder why? Perhaps such petty trials are beneath them and their art and they don’t need to prove anything because their art is ancient.

Yes you say “if”, i do that to, If i hadn’t been into Karate for many years before i found myself doing TJQ, and if also didn’t came to practice Xingyiquan and other. If I only had been a pure TJQ student(and perhaps if I wasn’t a foreigner but a pure Chinese) I too might have taken the challenge. At the time He(Xu) only wanted take on pure TJQ practitioners, certainly knowing most such are into it for same reason you’re into iaido

 

[Same Trick48]

I’m not sure I understand. I think a contest was announced, with prize money, and contestants volunteered themselves to take him on…and didn’t do very well!

Sanda/boxing/wresling tournaments are supposed to be sanctioned by proper governing bodies, His(Xu) was not as I recall, and so illegal.
As I recall firstly he was just “challenging “ TJQ, later event he picked some Wing Chun guy, tiny guy I recal.
At his own gym a Tongbeiquan practitioner (middle aged) stepped in, but Xu let another quite a heavy(big)guy step in for him, the fight ended with both combatants out of breath

 

[Gyakuto103]

Yep.
I know about 20 katas with a whole bunch of cool stuff in them, but just know, if someone comes at me on the street for real, my opening moves will probably be a kick in the junk, jab, reverse punch where possible, then repeat in no particular order other that target availability.

Don’t give away your strategy in public! The first rule of fight club is…?

 

[Gyakuto103]

Mmm, yes perhaps, but you thought boxing would be a sufficient acid test, and that’s also quite restrictive to upper body targets and also you’ll probably as in kendo would wear head protective gear, and also thickly padded gloves…..So maybe not that big difference between the two.

Oh I think there’s a huge difference between these sports…

And kendo do have its variants, something I was invited to a Kendo dojo to witness when I was in Okinawa years ago, like this in the two links here -

The common thread between police kendo and Itto-ryu, tied to the rigors of real-world duty | BUDO JAPAN - Japanese martial-arts



Gekiken – A bridge between old kenjutsu and modern sport Kendō | BUDO JAPAN - Japanese martial-arts

I always refer to All Japan Kendo Federation (ZNKR) style of Kendo.

I really would like to try out Kendo, and I’m not really that into swords in my regular daily training…..maybe that’s why I would like to try it……

Be under no misapprehension, the kendo shinai handles nothing like a sword and this is why the ZNKR introduced Iaido into the curriculum, so that Kendoka could experience the attributes of ‘real’ swords.

Stinky Kendo dojos, I don’t believe that, not in Japan

Maybe not in Japan, but in the UK … The problem is you cannot wash the armour and as the bacterial colonies build up and are fed by protein-rich perspiration, the odour of Satan’s own armpits soon wafts from the armour.

I used to spray my armour with antibacterial surface cleaner and then air it to completely dry it. It worked well because of the low relative humidity in the UK. Then I discovered a ‘nano silver steriliser’ which looks like a small microwave oven and worked amazingly well; no odour after use at all but would only just fit the ‘kote’ (gauntlets) and it soon stopped working.

 

[Prince_Alarming103]

I’ve never heard the term ‘sunk cost fallacy’. It’s a good one

Maybe if you were more familiar with common logical fallacies you'd be wrong less often, but then you don't think the arts and philosophy are worthy of your attention, intellectual giant that you pupport to be. Then again, you seem to have me on ignore, so I'm not sure why I'm wasting my effort...

 

[Same Trick48]

Oh I think there’s a huge difference between these sports…

I always refer to All Japan Kendo Federation (ZNKR) style of Kendo.

Be under no misapprehension, the kendo shinai handles nothing like a sword and this is why the ZNKR introduced Iaido into the curriculum, so that Kendoka could experience the attributes of ‘real’ swords.

Maybe not in Japan, but in the UK … The problem is you cannot wash the armour and as the bacterial colonies build up and are fed by protein-rich perspiration, the odour of Satan’s own armpits soon wafts from the armour.

I used to spray my armour with antibacterial surface cleaner and then air it to completely dry it. It worked well because of the low relative humidity in the UK. Then I discovered a ‘nano silver steriliser’ which looks like a small microwave oven and worked amazingly well; no odour after use at all but would only just fit the ‘kote’ (gauntlets) and it soon stopped working.

So you do do Kendo ? But you don’t find it an enough of an acid test ? Don’t your Kendo school do Kendo kata so to get the feel for the real sword ? Kendo kata has always been in the Kendo curriculum.

 

[Gyakuto103]

So you do do Kendo ?

I used to…a long time ago and reached shodan…a low grade.

But you don’t find it an enough of an acid test ?

The acid test is pitting one’s art against MMA/boxing. MMA and boxing are the test. I don’t think Kendo would do very well in the ‘acid test’ no

Don’t your Kendo school do Kendo kata so to get the feel for the real sword ?

Yes, with bokutō (wooden swords) but bokuto still don’t handle like real sword, being much lighter and having an unrealistic balance, hence the introduction of ZNKR Iaido. I really liked Kendo no kata.

Kendo kata has always been in the Kendo curriculum.

Yes.

 

[drop bear103]

So you do do Kendo ? But you don’t find it an enough of an acid test ? Don’t your Kendo school do Kendo kata so to get the feel for the real sword ? Kendo kata has always been in the Kendo curriculum.

I think the idea of an acid test would be if someone got in to a sword fight would they be better off.

And honestly I think a good Hema guy would have a good Kendo guy. Because they can do more things.

 

[gspell68]

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