The Acid Test

[windwalker099102]

But with these same arts rarely being put directly to ‘the acid test’ against a uncooperative, fully-resisting, aggressive opponent (MMA) and when they do, not faring so well (Xu Xiaodong) why do we continue to believe and repeat these ideas in the face of overwhelming counterevidence? Why this blind faith? Do we actually believe them or are they just lip service to resolve our cognitive dissonance and support our investment? For those who genuinely do believe these platitudes, why aren’t they challenging, tried and tested fighting arts to prove their principles are ‘true’?

Where do you stand? What are your thoughts?

Xu Xiaodong didn’t really test traditional martial arts as systems — he tested individuals who claimed to represent them.

If a poorly trained person loses, it tells us something about that person, not necessarily about the art they claim to practice. In the same way, a weak boxer doesn’t invalidate boxing, and a bad judoka doesn’t invalidate judo.

Xu’s matches reveal a gap between claims and actual skill, which is valuable. But they don’t logically prove that traditional methods themselves are false — only that many modern practitioners no longer embody them.

The real question isn’t whether traditional arts “work,” but how often their original training standards are actually preserved.

 

[drop bear103]

Xu Xiaodong didn’t really test traditional martial arts as systems — he tested individuals who claimed to represent them.

If a poorly trained person loses, it tells us something about that person, not necessarily about the art they claim to practice. In the same way, a weak boxer doesn’t invalidate boxing, and a bad judoka doesn’t invalidate judo.

Xu’s matches reveal a gap between claims and actual skill, which is valuable. But they don’t logically prove that traditional methods themselves are false — only that many modern practitioners no longer embody them.

The real question isn’t whether traditional arts “work,” but how often their original training standards are actually preserved.

He went in to a combat sports gym and was handled by everyone.

It is interesting that there were 5 exceptional individuals just hanging out in one place.

I mean what are the odds?

 

[windwalker099102]

I mean what are the odds?

yep what are the odds?

Xu Xiaodong’s fights highlight another issue. He didn’t test elite representatives of traditional systems, nor is he an elite representative of MMA or Sanshou himself.

What his matches exposed was not the failure of traditional arts as systems, but the gap between claims and actual ability among some practitioners.

 

[drop bear103]

yep what are the odds?

Xu Xiaodong’s fights highlight another issue. He didn’t test elite representatives of traditional systems, nor is he an elite representative of MMA or Sanshou himself.

What his matches exposed was not the failure of traditional arts as systems, but the gap between claims and actual ability among some practitioners.

What is an elite representative of traditional systems?

 

[Gyakuto103]

You could also get a foam sword or a stick and gain a pretty good idea if you are better than anyone in a sword fight.,

I suppose that’s more like Kenjutsu. Iai really isn’t about combat, despite what many practitioners. It is more akin to graceful dancing and I have no issue with that. I’ve always posited that an 8th Dan Iaidoka would be turned into sashimi by an average feudal ashigaru, that is, a conscripted foot soldier, usually a farmer but likely experienced in battle; if they’ve been in more than one battle, they’re probably quite handy! But of course this is unverifiable conjecture!

I tried it after about two years of a Filipino hybrid. With Nerf bats.

Bet it was fun!

And no. I really wasn't.

Bet you had fun though and that’s great! You’re not an ashigaru though

I’ve never heard the term ‘sunk cost fallacy’. It’s a good one

 

[Gyakuto103]

Overwhelming counter evidence? I don't really think so. My karate has worked for me in multiple fist fights in my life. Do I expect to get in a ring and beat someone who fights in a ring all the time. Not at all. I've high blocked a sucker punch and slid the blocking hand behind the guys head and threw him to the ground. He hit his head and rolled around and didn't try to hit me again. My karate did exactly what it was supposed to. Would I expect that to work against a guy in an MMA match? Nope. Would I expect that to work against a guy throwing a jab if we were squared off with our guards up? Nope. But in that situation karate worked.
Had a guy come at me from side at a party- he kinda hopped at me with his knee up and his fist cocked back for the punch. My right foot shot out and side kicked him right on that raised knee. He went over, never made it to me. He never even threw the punch his fist was cocked back for. Wouldn't expect that to work against a guy in a ring. Or if we were squared off with guards up. But it worked then. The only evidence I really care about is that karate has worked for me in multiple instances. But there's no way I'd expect what worked then to work in an MMA match. It doesn't mean karate doesn't work. Because it did. Just my amateur 2 cents.

As I’ve suggested, a combat sports fighter is better than an average non-MA person in an altercation That’s good but not evidence of supreme fighting magic. A boxer, wrestler or whatever might find the same thing. But if you’re confronted by a boxer or wrestler, your Karate might not hold you in such good stead.

 

[Gyakuto103]

What is an elite representative of traditional systems?

Once an art had been discredited in this way, you’d expect an actual ‘elite representative of the traditional system’ to step in and show how superior it actually if only to save face. Xu Xiaodong discredited several systems…made them a laughing stock, indeed. As an ‘elite representative of the traditional system’ of those systems, I’d have to step up! Perhaps it’s beneath them…

 

[drop bear103]

Once an art had been discredited in this way, you’d expect an actual ‘elite representative of the traditional system’ to step in and show how superior it actually if only to save face. Xu Xiaodong discredited several systems…made them a laughing stock, indeed. As an ‘elite representative of the traditional system’ of those systems, I’d have to step up! Perhaps it’s beneath them…

This is very common in the self defence industry as well. That there is no practical way of knowing who is good and who isn't

The title is almost self appointed or achieved via good marketing.

 

[drop bear103]

I suppose that’s more like Kenjutsu. Iai really isn’t about combat, despite what many practitioners. It is more akin to graceful dancing and I have no issue with that. I’ve always posited that an 8th Dan Iaidoka would be turned into sashimi by an average feudal ashigaru, that is, a conscripted foot soldier, usually a farmer but likely experienced in battle; if they’ve been in more than one battle, they’re probably quite handy! But of course this is unverifiable conjecture!

Bet it was fun!

Bet you had fun though and that’s great! You’re not an ashigaru though

I’ve never heard the term ‘sunk cost fallacy’. It’s a good one

I have no issues with people not being effective fighters.

I have an issue when the tools they suggest for finding out are bad.

 

[Flying Crane]

But if you’re confronted by a boxer or wrestler, your Karate might not hold you in such good stead.

Or…it might…

 

[Flying Crane]

Once an art had been discredited in this way, you’d expect an actual ‘elite representative of the traditional system’ to step in and show how superior it actually if only to save face. Xu Xiaodong discredited several systems…made them a laughing stock, indeed. As an ‘elite representative of the traditional system’ of those systems, I’d have to step up! Perhaps it’s beneath them…

Why would you expect this? I suspect most people simply do not care. Not even a little bit. Most people probably actually are completely unaware of any such events because, again, they don’t care and it’s simply not on their radar and wouldn’t be more than 3 seconds of curiosity if it was brought to their attention.

I think I know what you are talking about with this fellow, although if you hadn’t mentioned his name I never would have thought of him myself. I have no idea who he has fought, nor what systems they supposedly represented, nor if they were actually skilled in their system or not. I doubt he has fought anyone from my system, but I could be wrong. If he defeated them in 3 seconds, I couldn’t care less. It has no bearing on my training.

He hasn’t made anyone a laughing stock. I believe it is a very small portion of the population who takes any notice of this at all.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf103]

You could also get a foam sword or a stick and gain a pretty good idea if you are better than anyone in a sword fight.,

I tried it after about two years of a Filipino hybrid. With Nerf bats.

And no. I really wasn't.

If you spent 2 years training a filipino hybrid, and hadn't already tried swinging weapons around to see how you're doing, I'm not in the slightest surprised you weren't better than the average joe.

 

[Kung Fu Wang102]

tried and tested fighting arts to prove their principles are ‘true’? ... Where do you stand? What are your thoughts?

It should be very easy to test your "door guarding skill". For example, if your best technique is your "roundhouse kick". You can challenge your opponent in such a way that if your opponent can block all your 20 roundhouse kicks, he wins, otherwise, you win. Since this is 1 person plays 100% offense while the other person plays 100% defense, the challenge fight should be safe and friendly.

In the past many years, I have challenged as many MA persons as I can meet. My challenge is simple. I will ask my opponent to throw only 20 punches at me. I will play 100% defense. If any 1 of my opponent's 20 punches can land on my body, my opponent wins. If I can block/deflect all 20 punches, I win.

When you are

- young, you can test your skill as "If I can hit you within 20 punches,
- old, you can test your skill as "If you can't hit me within 20 punches,

I win, otherwise, you win."

 

[isshinryuronin]

It should be very easy to test your "door guarding skill". For example, if your best technique is your "roundhouse kick". You can challenge your opponent in such a way that if your opponent can block all your 20 roundhouse kicks, he wins, otherwise, you win. Since this is 1 person plays 100% offense while the other person plays 100% defense, the challenge fight should be safe and friendly.

In the past many years, I have challenged as many MA persons as I can meet. My challenge is simple. I will ask my opponent to throw only 20 punches at me. I will play 100% defense. If any 1 of my opponent's 20 punches can land on my body, my opponent wins. If I can block/deflect all 20 punches, I win.

When you are

- young, you can test your skill as "If I can hit you within 20 punches,
- old, you can test your skill as "If you can't hit me within 20 punches,

I win, otherwise, you win."

I like these sparring games - They're fun for the students and help develop specific individual skills. You can secretly tell one student he'll get double points for landing a roundhouse kick and tell the other he'll get double points for a backfist. It's interesting for the teacher to watch such a match as it encourages them to really think about tactics and setup.

 

[Kung Fu Wang102]

I like these sparring games - They're fun for the students and help develop specific individual skills. You can secretly tell one student he'll get double points for landing a roundhouse kick and tell the other he'll get double points for a backfist. It's interesting for the teacher to watch such a match as it encourages them to really think about tactics and setup.

IMO, this is the best way to help students to develop a certain technique. I have used this method to help students to develop wrestling skill in the past.

For example,

- Student A will need to apply "head lock" on student B. When A gets a head lock on B, the round stops. A will get 1 point.
- Student B will need to "grab A's leading leg off the ground". When B picks up A's leading leg, the round stops. B will get 1 point.

Have 5 rounds test. Whoever get 3 points will win the match.

But with these same arts rarely being put directly to ‘the acid test’ against a uncooperative, fully-resisting, aggressive opponent

If you have used your technique to work on 1000 opponents, the chance that your technique will work on your 1001 opponent will be high.

This guy had 21-3 under his belt when the video was filmed. He used the same combo twice in a row within 14 seconds. It worked on both attacks. It indicated that his favor combo worked many times against different opponents in the past.

 

[Gyakuto103]

This is very common in the self defence industry as well. That there is no practical way of knowing who is good and who isn't

The title is almost self appointed or achieved via good marketing.

Or…it might…

An excellent argument.

 

[Gyakuto103]

Why would you expect this? I suspect most people simply do not care. Not even a little bit.

They don’t care that a system they are devoting a lot of time, effort and probably money has an ambiguous efficacy? This assumes they are training to be able to fight effectively in dangerous situation and not, like me, dislike ballroom dancing/golf and are practising for other reasons.

Most people probably actually are completely unaware of any such events because, again, they don’t care and it’s simply not on their radar and wouldn’t be more than 3 seconds of curiosity if it was brought to their attention.

If you search of any martial arts online, these events will appear on your feed and/or your training partners will bring them up.

I think I know what you are talking about with this fellow, although if you hadn’t mentioned his name I never would have thought of him myself.

I had to look up his name. I just searched ‘Chinese MMA demolishes traditional Chinese martial arts’ and he appeared.

I have no idea who he has fought, nor what systems they supposedly represented,

Wing Chun and Tai Chi if memory serves…oh and one of those Japanese ‘no touch knockout people’.

nor if they were actually skilled in their system or not.

I think they were hand chosen to be completely unskilled and rubbish. Why would their training schools choose anyone else?

I doubt he has fought anyone from my system, but I could be wrong.

Which system is that? Did you mention Aikido?

If he defeated them in 3 seconds, I couldn’t care less.

Oh right…

It has no bearing on my training. He hasn’t made anyone a laughing stock.

Well he’s been humiliating enough for the Chinese Government to do their best to ‘ruin him’. When a your country’s dictatorship gets involved you’re in trouble, eh?

I believe it is a very small portion of the population who takes any notice of this at all.

I’d’ve thought any combat sports practitioner who goes beyond the ‘point of attrition’ is likely to be serious enough to question the efficacy of their system…unless they are a victim of the ‘sunk cost fallacy’

 

[Flying Crane]

They don’t care that a system they are devoting a lot of time, effort and probably money has an ambiguous efficacy? This assumes they are training to be able to fight effectively in dangerous situation and not, like me, dislike ballroom dancing/golf and are practising for other reasons.

Don’t care who wins when two people get into a ring and fight. Zero Interest in the fight at all. Don’t take notice of it, not even aware that it has happened except for the fact that it occasionally gets mentioned in places like Martialtalk. And then, not enough interest to give it more than five seconds of thought.

If you search of any martial arts online, these events will appear on your feed and/or your training partners will bring them up.

Sure, a handful of people on discussion forums want to make some hay over it. Beyond that, it barely gets notice in the wide world. Certainly my training partners don’t bring it up. It just never shows up in our conversations. As far as we are concerned, the event didn’t even happen, we don’t even notice it.

I had to look up his name. I just searched ‘Chinese MMA demolishes traditional Chinese martial arts’ and he appeared.

I would never have thought to even do that. Again, It just isn’t something that occupies my mind in any way. It holds no interest for me and for most people.

Wing Chun and Tai Chi if memory serves…oh and one of those Japanese ‘no touch knockout people’.

Ok, whatever, don’t care. Seriously, I’m not trying to just poke at you. Really, I don’t care and my point is, I suspect the vast vast majority of folks also don’t care. This is not the ground-shaking issue that you seem to feel it is.

I think they were hand chosen to be completely unskilled and rubbish. Why would their training schools choose anyone else?

Hand-chosen? By whom? Someone has the power to throw people into a ring to have a fight? Who has that power?

Which system is that? Did you mention Aikido?

I recently took up the study of aikido. I am very much a beginner, working on developing my fundamentals. I enjoy it quite a lot, it’s a great group of people and an excellent sensei. In the bigger picture, I train Tibetan White Crane kung fu. Now and again I have a handful or less of students.

Well he’s been humiliating enough for the Chinese Government to do their best to ‘ruin him’. When a your country’s dictatorship gets involved you’re in trouble, eh?

The Chinese government is full of sociopathic lunatics, i don’t pretend to understand what makes them tick. Given their creation of Modern Wushu as a specific national cultural performance art and competition style because they wanted to have something that they could hold ultimate control over, I don’t pay any attention to anything that they do when it comes to martial arts. If they are interested, it’s probably nonsense and best to be ignored and not to be gotten involved with.

I’d’ve thought any combat sports practitioner who goes beyond the ‘point of attrition’ is likely to be serious enough to question the efficacy of their system…unless they are a victim of the ‘sunk cost fallacy’

First, I don’t practice a combat sport.
Second, what you don’t seem to understand is that how some fellow who I have never even heard of performs in a competition ring has zero ramifications on my own training. That guy who steps into the ring represents himself only, in that moment only. I don’t know who he is, don’t know his reputation or if he even has one, who he trained with, what style he claims to train, none of it. Don’t care, not interested.

You seem to want to attach all kinds of value to these events that they simply do not merit.

And this all goes back to your OP. Apparently you had some training experiences that you came to question, in terms of the quality and usefulness of the method. That is OK, many of us have had a similar experience. We all need to find what is right for us. But you decided that what that means is that all such training is useless and pointless, and apparently you want to convince everyone else that they ought to feel the same way about all the training that we have had.

Good luck with that. We don’t share your point of view. But you are welcome to tilt at windmills, if you so choose.

 

[gspell68]

When asked about why I do karate or how bad/tough I am or could I kick so-n-so’s butt, I’ve always told folks that karate gives me a 51/49 percent chance in a street fight!

I’ve always had great balance (or at least I did when I was a few years younger) attributable to all those Friday and Saturday nights at the roller rink I reckon!
I contend that most of the typical run-of-the-mill BJJ/MMA gym rats probably wouldn’t be able to take me down without a full-on shoot-fighting run at my COG which would leave them exposed.
While in the Army, they revamped Combatives from punching/kicking/choking into something similar to BJJ about 25-30 years ago.
Needless to say, I’ve never been on the ground unless we started on the ground.
I cannot ever remember being bested.
I do remember one guy I was scared could take me out easily.
He was bigger than me, had great balance, no technique, and tons of natural fighting ability.
I saw him get in the center of a ring and watch him effortlessly take out at least ten guys one-by-one before he took a break.
One of the coolest things I’d ever seen.

After my first karate tournament around age 17-18, I totally lost faith in the whole ikken hissatsu single-blow, death-punch, kill-shot notion. During sparring, my older, bigger, more experienced opponent kicked with a lot of commitment.
I grabbed his leg and counter punched.
He fell and smacked his head on the hardwood floor.
His eyes rolled back in his head and his limbs went all stiff.
I was worried that he was going to die, but after an eternity of two to three minutes he was awake again and after five minutes was like nothing had even happened.
They awarded him the point and the match, but who really won the fight?
After that, I just kinda considered sparring a game of tag if it was tournament style, but if it was one or two minutes of uninterrupted technique and combo practice, then it was cool.

And, as far as Aikido goes, it’s probably pretty worthless as a martial art until you do it for 10 years or more.
I trained in it for six or eight months.
It was fun and a good workout.
The falling training is probably useful.
I think I could usefully apply some of the joint locks to someone on the ground.
The kicking and punching was a joke.
And I have real serious doubts that an Aikido guy of almost any level could grab my hand and throw me before I can punch through his liver and damage his inner child.

Regardless, karate and aikido do not street fight like they train.
Heck, you see years of training in cool techniques fall apart at tournaments when everyone reverts to plain ol’ kicking and punching, and many times, that’s poorly done.
Now imagine what happens when it gets real.

So, yeah.
I do it for that 51/49 percent advantage.

 

[millieIZ0]

I think a lot of people just stick to what they know and enjoy. Principles sound nice on a mat, even if they don’t always survive real resistance.