Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
As long as they are told of these requirements when they sign up. Not after years of training, right before they're up for black belt.
Community Service for Black Belts
- Thread starter Flashx80
- Start date
So let's get this straight. In your world, we should sit down with people who are thinking about joining and go over every single thing they might be expected to do over the next 6-8 years?
Who hurt you?
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
You're defending bait & switch? Who have you hurt?
Good luck with that but if you start forcing people to do it to get a belt or whatever that’s when it gets to cult levels. I work all day i pay my money to train I’m not being told what to do with my spare time
Who hurt you, you ask. Well, you tried. “In my world” lol. In my world, schools have the freedom to manage themselves as they wish. If you think their rules obnoxious, then you simply do not join or if they change the rules midstream and you don’t care for it, you quit and find a school that better suits you. If you need a simpler answer just ask.
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HighKick
Master Black Belt
'Cult' is an offensive word. I have a very hard time understanding how doing VOLUNTEEER service in the community as cultish.
Most MA's schools are a community or family (whatever word you want to use). Some people just want to train and go home, some people want to be more involved. No harm, no foul either way.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
This is the part that Dirty Dog isn't getting. He's saying that I'm asking schools to go over every little detail of what's going to be expected of them. When people sign up, this is what they believe will be asked of them - show up, train, go home. Anything outside of that is pretty significant and needs to be mentioned.
skribs
Grandmaster
I think it depends on how its done.
At the Taekwondo schools I've attended, it's common to have a certain amount of "leadership hours" to get your black belt and/or subsequent degrees. For most folks this was a volunteer position, but they're also mainly playing the role of babysitters, pad holders, and ukes. For me it was a paid position (after black belt).
I know in ATA you have to have so many points for things like how many people you've promoted, tournaments you've refereed, etc. This creates a system in which mid-to-upper-level black belts are encouraged to promote as many students to black belt as possible, which does create a potential conflict of interest in promotion requirements. (Master Alex may promote Ben not because of Ben's merits, but because Alex wants more points for his next promotion).
My BJJ Professor was talking about Judo, and how he quit at purple belt because he didn't want to jump through the hoops to get your black belt. According to him, you need to volunteer for a year for the Federation (helping run events, etc., all for free) in order to get your black belt.
I think when it's done at the local level to help build leadership skills it's fine. If it's just a way to get someone to teach class for free or a way for the organization to get free labor, I think its an issue.
At the Taekwondo schools I've attended, it's common to have a certain amount of "leadership hours" to get your black belt and/or subsequent degrees. For most folks this was a volunteer position, but they're also mainly playing the role of babysitters, pad holders, and ukes. For me it was a paid position (after black belt).
I know in ATA you have to have so many points for things like how many people you've promoted, tournaments you've refereed, etc. This creates a system in which mid-to-upper-level black belts are encouraged to promote as many students to black belt as possible, which does create a potential conflict of interest in promotion requirements. (Master Alex may promote Ben not because of Ben's merits, but because Alex wants more points for his next promotion).
My BJJ Professor was talking about Judo, and how he quit at purple belt because he didn't want to jump through the hoops to get your black belt. According to him, you need to volunteer for a year for the Federation (helping run events, etc., all for free) in order to get your black belt.
I think when it's done at the local level to help build leadership skills it's fine. If it's just a way to get someone to teach class for free or a way for the organization to get free labor, I think its an issue.
skribs
Grandmaster
Reminds me of a funny story. My Master tried to implement a new item for kids who are about to get their black belt - a video recording of the kid thanking their parent for all of their love and support on their journey. The first round went great. This idea did not survive the next round of black belt tests. The kicker was a kid that I assume had just found out that classes aren't actually free, or else he was getting cold feet on the test and his parents told him that with what they've paid for him to get here, he's not allowed to quit so close to the finish line. Anyway, the cost of the training was definitely heavy on his mind, because his speech went something like this:
"I want to thank my parents for paying for my training, because I wouldn't be able to train if they didn't pay for it. And I'd like to thank them for paying for my black belt test, because I wouldn't be able to test if they didn't pay for it..." He went around in circles like this for a minute. Every sentence had "thank them for paying for X" and then "because I wouldn't have X if they didn't pay for it."
My Master listened to that and said, "We're not doing the video idea anymore."
I think calling this cultish is very much overstating the issue. If an instructor wants to promote more than just martial ability through their promotion system, that's entirely up to them, so long as they aren't requiring anything unethical. Requiring some community service isn't a huge ask, and nobody would be required to do it.
I've met instructors who required a certain amount of experience in other arts to receive a given rank in their system. That's likely more time-consuming than doing some volunteer work in the community, but I wouldn't expect anyone to call that cultish.
I don't know that there needs to be any specific coverage of that. If it's part of the culture of the dojo, it can be made pretty evident over time. And nobody really needs to know their BB (or any other belt/rank far into the future) requirements when they start.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
"...unless it's outside of what they signed up for."
There, fixed it for ya.
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lol no they’re not families at all. And if people genuinely want to volunteer then fine but that’s not what’s being talked about. We are saying about people saying that to get your next belt or whatever then you have to do this stuff and that is what is cultish whether that offends you or not I don’t care but I’m not being told what to do outside of classes I pay for just because some guy has a black belt
I’d say about five percent of people who tried to join our dojo, quit while filing out the application to join. The application informed them of how difficult the training was going to be. It also asked them questions some might not like answering. I don’t care, it was done intentionally on my part.
It also told them you trained for the first month free to see if this was really what you want to do.
Another thing it informed them of was their responsibilities outside of the dojo. If they were getting into fights and being A-holes they were going to get their ash handed to them in a lunchbox.
The place wasn’t for everybody.
It amuses me that people think there are no repercussions for bad behavior outside of the dojo.
Again, it wasn’t only stated in the application, there were signs everywhere.
And no black belt ever paid one cent for tuition. Ever. Nor could all of them teach. Not everybody knows how.
It also told them you trained for the first month free to see if this was really what you want to do.
Another thing it informed them of was their responsibilities outside of the dojo. If they were getting into fights and being A-holes they were going to get their ash handed to them in a lunchbox.
The place wasn’t for everybody.
It amuses me that people think there are no repercussions for bad behavior outside of the dojo.
Again, it wasn’t only stated in the application, there were signs everywhere.
And no black belt ever paid one cent for tuition. Ever. Nor could all of them teach. Not everybody knows how.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
We never present it as 'leadership skills', although it turns out that way sometimes. It is giving people an opportunity to be good people within their community. It is really that simple. It is in no way part of the required curriculum. Just good wholesome fun and giving back.
I have seen giving back be the most educational and exhilarating thing a person has ever done in their life. Absolutely awesome.
Is it for everyone that comes through our schools? No, and again that is okay. We have an extremely competitive element in our program as well, so we try to have something for most everyone.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
Yes, you are. You are paying someone to tell you what to do with your spare time.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
And? Possibly the parent wants or needs to be involved. I am at a complete loss for how a person is so negative about community service.
It think a little would do you good.
Yeah in that class time that Im paying for. Outside of that specific time I’m paying for they are nothing more than a normal person. I don’t do the whole hero worship of an instructor. Outside of martial arts they’re nothing special and if they want to tell me to go wash cars or bag groceries for free then honestly I’d just laugh at them
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
What a weak, losing response. This is how a teenager responds when their mom tells them that they're gonna stink if they don't shower.
What do the parent's choices have to do with the child being evaluated?
Who's bashing community service?
I'll do it if and when I want to. Not because it's a condition of being rewarded something. In truth, making it a condition of a reward totally nullifies the "volunteer" part of "volunteer work." The only difference is that the compensation is something other than money.
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