The Acid Test

[Gyakuto103]

Our loyalty to our martial art(s) is often fanatical just as it is toward our football team; great investment in terms of time support and practise forges this attitude. Some think the principles that laid the foundations of their art are ‘perfect’. ‘Softness against power’, ‘speed overcoming strength’, ‘evasion redirecting force’ are oft-repeated foundational mantra we see on this forum alone.

But with these same arts rarely being put directly to ‘the acid test’ against a uncooperative, fully-resisting, aggressive opponent (MMA) and when they do, not faring so well (Xu Xiaodong) why do we continue to believe and repeat these ideas in the face of overwhelming counterevidence? Why this blind faith? Do we actually believe them or are they just lip service to resolve our cognitive dissonance and support our investment? For those who genuinely do believe these platitudes, why aren’t they challenging, tried and tested fighting arts to prove their principles are ‘true’?

Where do you stand? What are your thoughts?

 

[skribs101]

I think some of it is you have to look at what is the art really trying to accomplish. And some of it is you have to look at whether the school or practitioner is the best example of the art.

What is the art trying to accomplish? I'm going to use Aikido as an example here. I could be mistaken on this, because I've heard several histories of Aikido. The one that seems the most true to me is that it was created by high-level Judokas for high-level Judokas to have an option for grappling technique that was softer than the art of hitting people with a planet. That Aikido was designed for experienced grapplers to have an option for neutralizing a nuisance that isn't necessarily a threat.

The types of techniques you see in Aikido and Hapkido tend to use a lot of pain compliance holds, which really don't work in MMA. But you see them used very effectively in police work.

As far as self-defense goes, these arts tend to take lower-percentage moves for other strategic advantages. The strategy a BJJ fighter would use might end up with them tangled up on the ground for several seconds in a position that's awkward to escape one the damage has been done (sleeper hold or limb destruction). The strategy of a HKD fighter is going to be to remain standing and to quickly destroy the limb, using techniques that are more easily countered but also leave you less vulnerable in the execution.

I'll expand the idea of self-defense effectiveness a bit to wrestling. Yes, wrestling is tested against resisting opponents (probably the sport people have the most active resistance in, because you cannot submit from bottom). Yes, wrestling is consistently used as a base in MMA, and is arguably the strongest grappling base to use in MMA (just add submissions). However, wrestling by itself doesn't include a finisher. You pin the person down...now what? Let them up for them to start hitting you again? But the act of pinning someone down can buy you time for help to arrive, or for them to cool off.

There's also the theory that boxing is very limited because they don't know how to deal with kicks or grappling, yet the most impressive self-defense videos tend to come from boxers who go 1 vs. n and just knockout blow after knockout blow to mow through a bunch of assailants.

Is the school a good representation of the art? In competitive martial arts, like BJJ, you have a few bad schools (competition records tend to make it so the bad ones don't stick around). In some other martial arts, you have a lot of schools that either have poor quality control or just poor instruction. If 90% of the Skribs-Ki-Do schools are teaching Skribs-Ki-Do wrong, is that an indictment of the art itself?

 

[Flying Crane]

Our loyalty to our martial art(s) is often fanatical just as it is toward our football team; great investment in terms of time support and practise forges this attitude. Some think the principles that laid the foundations of their art are ‘perfect’. ‘Softness against power’, ‘speed overcoming strength’, ‘evasion redirecting force’ are oft-repeated foundational mantra we see on this forum alone.

But with these same arts rarely being put directly to ‘the acid test’ against a uncooperative, fully-resisting, aggressive opponent (MMA) and when they do, not faring so well (Xu Xiaodong) why do we continue to believe and repeat these ideas in the face of overwhelming counterevidence? Why this blind faith? Do we actually believe them or are they just lip service to resolve our cognitive dissonance and support our investment? For those who genuinely do believe these platitudes, why aren’t they challenging, tried and tested fighting arts to prove their principles are ‘true’?

Where do you stand? What are your thoughts?

You practice a sword art. Are you suggesting that you cannot justify that practice unless you get into a ring and fight an MMA champion with your sword? Have you done that justification?

Do you see how little sense that makes?

You tell me: why do you love the practice of the sword? You must have your reasons.

 

[Gyakuto103]

I once practised Wado Ryu Karate with its central tenet being ‘shifting the body off the attacking line with a twist of the body allowing, simultaneously, a counter to be well in range’. It’s a great idea in which I was wholeheartedly invested. But after decades, I realised the issues with it:

1) An opponent won’t stick to an attacking axis but will tend to follow the evasion, perhaps resulting in a less effective strike, but a strike nevertheless.

2) The practitioner has to be blindingly quick to pull off this idea, thus large, long-limbed people are at a great disadvantage as are those with a ‘neurological wiring’ that makes them slower (circuit length in taller people being one of them).

3) If you’re in range to counter and your counter attacked hasn’t felled your opponent instantly, incapacitating them completely (yeah, like that’s ever likely) you’re likely to suffer an ai uchi at best.

Now in all these years, I have seen a few Wado Ryu practitioners who can seemingly pull this off this strategy (enemy-felling punches being pulled, notwithstanding) but I could count them on the fingers of one hand. They had the physique and the neural wiring to allow them to do it just like Usain Bolt’s anatomy and physiology allowed him to excel in sprinting. But learning Wado Ryu Karate, for most people, especially long and heavy Westerners, just makes them a bit better at punching and kicking than a muggle. They might be better off learning a more appropriate style for their physiques. But, that doesn’t make me abandon the style or fall out of love with it. Instead, I admire the beauty of the orchestrated execution of its central tenet as seen in pre-arranged sparring (Kihon and Ohyo kumite) plus I love the faster, snappy techniques, especially the refined kicks, when compared to Wado Ryu’s parent style. I’ve managed to rationalise my cognitive dissonance at it’s very particularness rather than rabidly and blindly defending its ultimate effectiveness in never ending, fruitless debates.

Have you spotted these sorts of issues in your art? Share them please…you’ll feel better!

 

[Gyakuto103]

You practice a sword art. Are you suggesting that you cannot justify that practice unless you get into a ring and fight an MMA champion with your sword? Have you done that justification?

Do you see how little sense that makes?

You tell me: why do you love the practice of the sword? You must have your reasons.

Oh that. It’s just figure skating…dancing with a pretty weapon and flappy clothing, admittedly with interesting philosophy. It’s completely useless and I’m fine with that…I don’t like golf, after all.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm going to use Aikido as an example here. I could be mistaken on this, because I've heard several histories of Aikido. The one that seems the most true to me is that it was created by high-level Judokas for high-level Judokas to have an option for grappling technique that was softer than the art of hitting people with a planet. That Aikido was designed for experienced grapplers to have an option for neutralizing a nuisance that isn't necessarily a threat.

As a student of aikido and as someone who has read several books on aikido long before I became a student of aikido, I have never heard this story of aikido’s origins.

The founder of aikido, Morehei Ueshiba, studied one or more of the older juijitsu systems and held an instructor license in at least one of them. Daito-Ryu is the main one, and perhaps there were others but I don’t recall at the moment. He was never a student of Kodokan judo.

He was a fanatic when it came to training, and worked very hard. Gradually he developed a different approach that eventually became his aikido.

I do believe Kano sent some of his judo students to study with Ueshiba because he saw merit in the method. Some of those people became long-term aikido practitioners. So there is that judo connection in the early 1900s.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh that. It’s just figure skating…dancing with a pretty weapon and flappy clothing, admittedly with interesting philosophy. It’s completely useless and I’m fine with that…I don’t like golf, after all.

And yet you enjoy and appreciate it, without having justified it through some sort of competition. You may find it completely useless an an anachronistic and out-of-date activity. I actually enjoy training with old weapons and see value in maintaining these older skills and wonder if they may find relevance once again. Mankind has poked each other with sharp sticks and edged weapons for far longer than we have had higher technology firearms. Nothing says that with the right despots in power we could collapse as a civilization and eventually find ourselves working within the confines of a lower technology once again.

MMA/competition is not the yardstick against which all else must be measured. And that fact does not diminish the value that other methods have, including their combat/self-defense potential. I honestly feel no compulsion to justify my training to anyone, for any reason. I have also never felt any interest in MMA, either as a competitor or as a spectator. I don’t see the entertainment value in two people beating each other up. But that’s just me. One’s mileage may vary.

 

[Gyakuto103]

And yet you enjoy and appreciate it, without having justified it through some sort of competition. You may find it completely useless an an anachronistic and out-of-date activity. I actually enjoy training with old weapons and see value in maintaining these older skills and wonder if they may find relevance once again. Mankind has poked each other with sharp sticks and edged weapons for far longer than we have had higher technology firearms. Nothing says that with the right despots in power we could collapse as a civilization and eventually find ourselves working within the confines of a lower technology once again.

That is quite a stretch and then my day will come…a rōnin wondering the planes of Devon, righting wrongs, defending the weak before walking off into the sunset…

MMA/competition is not the yardstick against which all else must be measured. And that fact does not diminish the value that other methods have, including their combat/self-defense potential.

It does if the practitioner of the art in question rabidly defends its ultimate fighting effectiveness. That is the point of this thread. Most of us know what we do is an anachronism at best (swordsmanship) and most combat sports were never used and thus tested in anger, but some insist they are the ultimate fighting art with no real or indeed even required proof. What is the nature of this delusion?

I honestly feel no compulsion to justify my training to anyone, for any reason.

You’ve totally missed the point; not to anyone else, but to yourself. You must, on some level, realise that maybe your art is no different to my current art in that it’s an aesthetic pursuit…like ballroom dancing… rather than an effective fighting art.

I have also never felt any interest in MMA, either as a competitor or as a spectator. I don’t see the entertainment value in two people beating each other up. But that’s just me. One’s mileage may vary.

It’s the ‘acid test’ as stated in the title not a suggestion you watch it Let’s substitute boxing for MMA if you find that’s less distasteful to you. How would your art fair against a really competent boxer? Does that outcome worry you? If yes, why? If no, why?

 

[Fungus94]

Our loyalty to our martial art(s) is often fanatical just as it is toward our football team; great investment in terms of time support and practise forges this attitude. Some think the principles that laid the foundations of their art are ‘perfect’.
...
Where do you stand? What are your thoughts?

I am not loyal to the pureness of my art and I am not the slighest ashamed. I am loyal only to my own understanding of the constructing principles, but they are of course influenced by the style I trained. But I still seek to learn and understand logic of techniques from my teachers, but then I bend it as it suits me. If I learned something in my short journey, it is that there is no one-strategy optimal for all. To not adapt to my limits, and to not exploit my strenghts, whaterver they are in the name of tradition is not my way.

Seeking the truth shall not bow to prejudice.

An opponent won’t stick to an attacking axis but will tend to follow the evasion, perhaps resulting in a less effective strike, but a strike nevertheless.

This is why I think the best strategies (wether defensive or offensive) are the secret ones, because they are the hardest for your opponent to outsmart and largest potential for surprise.

Ideally train in solitude and complete darkness, and deny your skills at all cost.

If I appear as a limping old man void of any reaonsble posture, I think even suboptimal slow heel kick to an attackers knee joint with blow their socks off.

 

[Gyakuto103]

I am not loyal to the pureness of my art and I am not the slighest ashamed. I am loyal only to my own understanding of the constructing principles, but they are of course influenced by the style I trained. But I still seek to learn and understand logic of techniques from my teachers, but then I bend it as it suits me. If I learned something in my short journey, it is that there is no one-strategy optimal for all. To not adapt to my limits, and to not exploit my strenghts, whaterver they are in the name of tradition is not my way.

Seeking the truth shall not bow to prejudice.


This is why I think the best strategies (wether defensive or offensive) are the secret ones, because they are the hardest for your opponent to outsmart and largest potential for surprise.

Ideally train in solitude and complete darkness, and deny your skills at all cost.

If I appear as a limping old man void of any reaonsble posture, I think even suboptimal slow heel kick to an attackers knee joint with blow their socks off.

From memory, you’re a Kyokushin practitioner, aren’t you Fungus? In many ways, Kyokushin’s effectiveness as a combat sport is tested more ‘rigorously’ than other arts, via your full contact, (relatively)-free sparring. I know you can’t head punch, but even so. Thus I can see why you’re fairly happy with it’s status quo.

 

[Gyakuto103]

This is why I think the best strategies (whether defensive or offensive) are the secret ones, because they are the hardest for your opponent to outsmart and largest potential for surprise.

I think this following the evading target is a bit of a reflex, isn’t it? It’s tracking-modified countering. Any ‘secrets techniques’ as soon revealed in combat, after all.

 

[Fungus94]

From memory, you’re a Kyokushin practitioner, aren’t you Fungus? In many ways, Kyokushin’s effectiveness as a combat sport is tested more ‘rigorously’ than other arts, via your full contact, (relatively)-free sparring. I know you can’t head punch, but even so. Thus I can see why you’re fairly happy with it’s status quo.

I dont view the art limited to what we do in contact sparring however. That said what I find unrealistic is the habit some develop precisely becase you can stay in close range an not worry about elbows or punches to head. Also, groin kicks aren't allowed. And quite often a semi-squared stance is open goal.

This is my still struggle against intuition to protect the groin and keep distance.

But thanks to the compromise i can enjoy the refreshing benign pain of hard sparring without woryring about brain. Had I received as much power to my head that i have do my body during my short time, I think I would already be in risk, and then I'm a beginner.

 

[Fungus94]

I think this following the evading target is a bit of a reflex, isn’t it? It’s tracking-modified countering. Any ‘secrets techniques’ as soon revealed in combat, after all.

Yes, all the sparring partners know them after some rounds. But I don't imagine ending up in a real fight with any sparring partners - unlikely. I was thinking more like tactics, to always keep some secrets to the very end.

 

[Flying Crane]

That is quite a stretch and then my day will come…a rōnin wondering the planes of Devon, righting wrongs, defending the weak before walking off into the sunset…

I don’t think it’s quite a stretch. It probably won’t happen in our lifetime, but a decay in society and civilization, where supply chains are perpetually disrupted, fuel sources like fossil fuels become harder to obtain and refine, climate change and pandemics disrupt large populations, we could find that technology we currently take for granted could become harder to come by and eventually unavailable. Perhaps a few generations down the line this could become a reality.

In the current age, let’s suppose for a moment that we become embroiled in civil war and very unconventional warfare due to, oh, I dunno, some idiotic behavior of some politicians, nobody specific, mind you, just in the general sense of things. I would not hesitate to strap on a sword as a backup weapon in the instance where I lose my primary weapon or run short of ammunition. This is whether I am an active participant, or simply trying to keep my head down and protect my family from the chaos going on around me.

There is relevance.

It does if the practitioner of the art in question rabidly defends its ultimate fighting effectiveness. That is the point of this thread. Most of us know what we do is an anachronism at best (swordsmanship) and most combat sports were never used and thus tested in anger, but some insist they are the ultimate fighting art with no real or indeed even required proof. What is the nature of this delusion?

Who is doing this? Ok I will concede the point: if someone is running around claiming that their style, or they themselves would clean house in an MMA competition, against competitors with winning records, then they need to be willing to put it on the line and prove it, or it’s just jaw-flapping. If you put forth extra-ordinary claims, then the burden is on you to provide evidence.

But again, who is doing that? Who is proactively making those claims?

You’ve totally missed the point; not to anyone else, but to yourself. You must, on some level, realise that maybe your art is no different to my current art in that it’s an aesthetic pursuit…like ballroom dancing… rather than an effective fighting art.

No, I do not believe I have. You might be confused about the point you think you are making. You had some training that you grew to doubt. Many of us have had that experience, myself included. We moved on to train something else, myself included. You want us to doubt our training, as do you. I don’t doubt my training.

It’s the ‘acid test’ as stated in the title not a suggestion you watch it Let’s substitute boxing for MMA if you find that’s less distasteful to you. How would your art fair against a really competent boxer? Does that outcome worry you? If yes, why? If no, why?

I don’t watch boxing either. As I stated earlier, I don’t see entertainment value in watching two people beat each other up, and I have no interest in competition.

That aside, there are all kinds of context here that would need to be addressed. Face a boxer in the ring, under boxing rules? Face a boxer on the street, who is attacking me unprovoked?

Sure, either of those cases. In the former, one needs to train for the rules and at a level of intensity appropriate to such an agreed-to contest. In the latter, outside of the rules, there are too many factors they are uncontrollable. Ultimately, is he better at what he does than I am at what I do? Is he 25 years old and focused on his fighting career where he trains 4-6 hours a day, 4-6 days a week, vs. me at 54 years of age with a family and job that prevents me from putting in that kind of training? He is in the best shape of his life, where I am no longer as energetic and resilient as I was 30 years ago. Who do you think would win? It isn’t a difficult question. I am only me. Any shortcomings or failures of me are mine alone. That in no way implies what someone else who is not me might accomplish using the same training methods.

Does the method itself have the tools to get the job done? Yes, of course. Has the individual done what is necessary to prepare himself for the event? That is the only question.

 

[hoshin160011]

To re-phrase the OP question, why do martial artists think they can fight? the answer is the same as to the question, why do untrained average people think they can fight. because they dont know what a fight is. I would strongly sugest that those who read this post also do not know what a fight is. With few exceptions to those who deal with violence in some form or fashion on a regular basis.
Violence manifests itself in many different ways. Each individual may experience one or more different expressions of violence in thier life. But for most this experience will be very limited. Without this direct experience you have no clue what your doing or how to modulate your martial art. Your playing make believe. Your probably putting your trust in your teacher to tell you what "real life" is like. But most commonly they are playing make believe as well. Let's make no mistake about this, MMA is a sport and not real violence either, but it is closer to the real thing than anything else we currently have for testing some types of application. The underlying problem is generally not the art but lies wirhin the individual and also the teacher as both use fiction to fill in the unknown gaps about violence. This is why mma is closer to reality. The mma fighter knows from experience the reactions of hitting and what it's like being hit where as others hold a fictional narrative in their minds, when my attacker does this...I'll do this, which will make him do this..
all the while not understanding real violence will never start like he imagines, his body won't be reacting like he thinks it will due to the adrenaline dump and the yellow fluid evacuating the body and will be over before his mind even has time to comprehend what the #<{/ just happend.

 

[Badhabits]

Overwhelming counter evidence? I don't really think so. My karate has worked for me in multiple fist fights in my life. Do I expect to get in a ring and beat someone who fights in a ring all the time. Not at all. I've high blocked a sucker punch and slid the blocking hand behind the guys head and threw him to the ground. He hit his head and rolled around and didn't try to hit me again. My karate did exactly what it was supposed to. Would I expect that to work against a guy in an MMA match? Nope. Would I expect that to work against a guy throwing a jab if we were squared off with our guards up? Nope. But in that situation karate worked.
Had a guy come at me from side at a party- he kinda hopped at me with his knee up and his fist cocked back for the punch. My right foot shot out and side kicked him right on that raised knee. He went over, never made it to me. He never even threw the punch his fist was cocked back for. Wouldn't expect that to work against a guy in a ring. Or if we were squared off with guards up. But it worked then. The only evidence I really care about is that karate has worked for me in multiple instances. But there's no way I'd expect what worked then to work in an MMA match. It doesn't mean karate doesn't work. Because it did. Just my amateur 2 cents.

 

[Badhabits]

Also I've written on here before I don't really believe karate is necessarily for " out fighting" an opponent. In the two examples above, there was no actual fight. Karate stopped the other person in their tracks. Either of those guys might've whipped my butt if we'd put up our guards and squared off to fight. But....

 

[drop bear103]

Our loyalty to our martial art(s) is often fanatical just as it is toward our football team; great investment in terms of time support and practise forges this attitude. Some think the principles that laid the foundations of their art are ‘perfect’. ‘Softness against power’, ‘speed overcoming strength’, ‘evasion redirecting force’ are oft-repeated foundational mantra we see on this forum alone.

But with these same arts rarely being put directly to ‘the acid test’ against a uncooperative, fully-resisting, aggressive opponent (MMA) and when they do, not faring so well (Xu Xiaodong) why do we continue to believe and repeat these ideas in the face of overwhelming counterevidence? Why this blind faith? Do we actually believe them or are they just lip service to resolve our cognitive dissonance and support our investment? For those who genuinely do believe these platitudes, why aren’t they challenging, tried and tested fighting arts to prove their principles are ‘true’?

Where do you stand? What are your thoughts?

Sunk cost fallacy.

 

[drop bear103]

The types of techniques you see in Aikido and Hapkido tend to use a lot of pain compliance holds, which really don't work in MMA. But you see them used very effectively in police work.

No. You don't.

 

[drop bear103]

Oh that. It’s just figure skating…dancing with a pretty weapon and flappy clothing, admittedly with interesting philosophy. It’s completely useless and I’m fine with that…I don’t like golf, after all.

You could also get a foam sword or a stick and gain a pretty good idea if you are better than anyone in a sword fight.,

I tried it after about two years of a Filipino hybrid. With Nerf bats.

And no. I really wasn't.