"classic" martial art vs "modern" martial arts

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

do i have a crystal ball?

Have you done a lot of street fighting? Did you fight someone skilled in an “old” system? Are you skilled in an “old” system? Which one?

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

Well I don’t live in Germany, but I was there recently, it didn’t seem to me to be a hotbed of street violence. Perhaps I wasn’t in the dangerous areas, it felt very safe walking alone late at night.

I love Berlin, but it has some dodgy areas at night, if you have a brown face…like Minneso …oh never mind.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

I love Berlin, but it has some dodgy areas at night, if you have a brown face…like Minneso …oh never mind.

Although I am not of German descent, I have been told by Germans in Germany that I strongly resemble alpine Germans. I confess that I really don’t know what that means. Several times while in Germany, my German/Swedish wife and I were approached and asked for directions by Germans. It must be my taste for 3 stripes, I never wear any swoosh. In any case, I never felt unsafe anywhere in EU, that’s a sharp contrast from many places in the US.

 

[philwhite]

I love Berlin, but it has some dodgy areas at night, if you have a brown face…like Minneso …oh never mind.

You should probably keep politics out of this. Minnesota is a nice place on the whole. I grew up there and it wasn't like this until recently (5-10 years). I'm sure the same could be said about any number of large cities these days.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

You should probably keep politics out of this. Minnesota is a nice place on the whole. I grew up there and it wasn't like this until recently (5-10 years). I'm sure the same could be said about any number of large cities these days.

However qualified the statement, we can’t talk politics here. There is another site for that. I’m sure the administration can comment. IMO there was nothing overtly political in the statement in question. All that said, satire is just that. Thick skins and what not…I don’t think the city nor the residents thereof were at question. Text is such a tricky thing, how did we get on without it?

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

Although I am not of German descent, I have been told by Germans in Germany that I strongly resemble alpine Germans.

They said that to me, too

I never wear any swoosh. In any case, I never felt unsafe anywhere in EU, that’s a sharp contrast from many places in the US.

The only place in continental Europe I felt very unsafe was around Gare du Nord train station in Paris. I felt we were going to be the victims of some sort of crime, imminently!

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

They said that to me, too

The only place in continental Europe I felt very unsafe was around Gare du Nord train station in Paris. I felt we were going to be the victims of some sort of crime, imminently!

You know, if my wife was not with me, I would nearly welcome the opportunity. What’s the worst that could happen? It’s not like they have guns…

 

[Same Trick93 44]

Iai kata = one person on their own performing (‘solo’)

Kenjutsu kata = two people one acting as attacker, the other as defender.

It is…beauty in its utility.

Since it involves a sword being waved about, it could, but intent in in somebody’s head, so unless you can read other people’s minds or have a very good perception developed by years of practise and observation, you won’t really know. ‘Depth of practise’ is important in Iai and not a product of one’s grade but something more ephemeral.

Being a scientist, I’m a sceptic and was sceptical, until a 7th Dan demonstrated this ‘intent’ by first cutting towards me several times as I stepped back from him, with and then without murderous intent (I asked this to be done in a blind trial). When he ‘turned it on’, I consistently felt a primal fear for my life and really needed to get away from him; I was scared! I think it’s due to our evolutionary ability to recognise ‘micro cues’ in others body language, almost imperceptible facial expressions etc summating to warn us of impending danger and to react accordingly. Others will claim some supernatural

I’m not sure I understand. I think it’s down to the summation of ‘micro cues’.

Do Iaido schools actually use the word ‘kata’ in addition to its ‘Iaido”?

Iai could translate as - join one’s residual/join oneself, more clearly as - ‘being coordinated ‘?
So yes it’s clearly - solo performed Kata.

And Kata kinda means -way/method - but in the way of spatial orientation

Iaido kata - the way of being coordinated while on the way/(while going through a method )
Iaijutsu kata - the method of being coordinated while while going through a method/(while on the way)

I understand there are Iaido competitions, so if a competitor performs a marvelous aesthetic “kata” but show a hint of martial( murderous ) intent it will not do because it’s not ‘Do’ and no scores awarded ?



“Draw your sword, and hold it high above your head. Then close your eyes and ready yourself for combat.”

The Samurai and the Tea Master

 

[Same Trick93 44]

Marital arts = shut up and do what you’re told…not later…now!

“Karate is the most ZEN-like of all the martial arts. It has abandoned the sword. This means that it trascends the idea of winning and losing to become a way of thinking and living for the sake of other people in accordance with the way of Heaven. Its meanings, therefore, reach the profound levels of human thought."

~Mas Oyama~

 

[Same Trick93 44]

all the Old systems & Ryu are great but nothing to do with real street fighting in 2026...simple as that

Let’s hope 2026 not going to be a complete war zone with all the sword rattling and stick poking going on it doesn’t look good

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

“Karate is the most ZEN-like of all the martial arts. It has abandoned the sword. This means that it trascends the idea of winning and losing to become a way of thinking and living for the sake of other people in accordance with the way of Heaven. Its meanings, therefore, reach the profound levels of human thought."

~Mas Oyama~

I read this kind of aphorism all the time but for ‘gendai martial arts’ but they seldom bear close scrutiny because very unZen-like competitions are so emphasised in most of them, especially Karate. Tournaments, tournaments, tournaments! Trophies, trophies, trophies! punching bulls in the head, 100 man kumite etc. I’d say modern Karate is the least Zen-like art. But it’s not a problem, it’s a sport and an excellent one at that!

Rankings seems to be an important thing in Japan. Everything is ranked via competition; best calligraphy, best garden, best bonsai, cutest cat, you name it, there’s a competition for it in Japan. And yet these wise men say the sort of thing quoted above.

 

[Prince_Alarming85 21]

Not really into 'teh w3al thtw33tfighting'. Don't get me wrong, I can do it. I have powerful punches, I'm a naturally talented grappler and I'm pretty fit. Real violence is not difficult- look at the people who do it. What a lot of people don't appreciate is that a lot of criminal violence revolves around equalisers and various dirty tricks I will not specify. It is, however, an awful and ugly thing and a massively stupid waste of time. For the record, I know people with TMA training who have acquited themselves very 'honourably' in 'real violence'. Half of those fights however they would never have been in if it were not for that attitude of 'I can handle myself'. If you're honestly worried about your safety on the mean streets of suburbia, I recommend you learn situational awareness skills. The first thing you learned in my school, for example, was never to sit with your back open to a coridoor. Me, I'll be polishing my kata and beating my makiwara.

 

[Same Trick93 44]

I read this kind of aphorism all the time but for ‘gendai martial arts’ but they seldom bear close scrutiny because very unZen-like competitions are so emphasised in most of them, especially Karate. Tournaments, tournaments, tournaments! Trophies, trophies, trophies! punching bulls in the head, 100 man kumite etc. I’d say modern Karate is the least Zen-like art. But it’s not a problem, it’s a sport and an excellent one at that!

Rankings seems to be an important thing in Japan. Everything is ranked via competition; best calligraphy, best garden, best bonsai, cutest cat, you name it, there’s a competition for it in Japan. And yet these wise men say the sort of thing quoted above.

For a long time, I have emphasized that karate is Budo, and if the Budo is removed from karate, it is nothing more than sport karate, show karate or even fashion karate – the idea of training merely to be fashionable.”



mas oyama waterfall - 必应


The Eleven Mottos of Masutatsu ‘Mas’ Oyama


Osu !


And yes, even Iaido do competitions, do you Iaido compete?

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

For a long time, I have emphasized that karate is Budo, and if the Budo is removed from karate, it is nothing more than sport karate, show karate or even fashion karate – the idea of training merely to be fashionable.”



mas oyama waterfall - 必应


The Eleven Mottos of Masutatsu ‘Mas’ Oyama

He must be turning over in his grave !
The Eleven Mottos of Masutatsu ‘Mas’ Oyama

And yes, even Iaido do competitions, do you Iaido compete?

Never! I am a vocal critic of ‘taikai’ within the association suggesting that the pursuit of shiny baubles with techniques that cost people their lives is vulgar and denigrates the art. A surprising number of people agree with me. Our once large summer seminars had a compulsory taikai on the final day with us all seminar attendees rostered into the rounds. I’d ask to be removed from the roster as I didn’t want to take part because of my convictions only to hear, “Oh come on now, it’s only a bit of fun”! They’d keep me and my girlfriend on the roster so we just didn’t turn up. A person’s character is built upon the strength of their convictions

I tried to understand the idea of sport swordsmanship by writing an essay and, ironically, won a cash prize for it!

Are Budo and Sports Complimentary? | Tozando

weblog.tozando.com

 

[isshinryuronin37 37]

For a long time, I have emphasized that karate is Budo, and if the Budo is removed from karate, it is nothing more than sport karate, show karate or even fashion karate – the idea of training merely to be fashionable.”



mas oyama waterfall - 必应

He must be turning over in his grave !

Yes. How ironic based on his quote that the style he founded is now heavily based on sport competition. But how much of that did he contribute to popularize his art (and himself?)?

Funakoshi deeply regretted his Shotokan becoming JKA sport and desired karate to stay true to its Okinawan origins.

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

Yes. How ironic based on his quote that the style he founded is now heavily based on sport competition. But how much of that did he contribute to popularize his art (and himself?)?

It’s a bit of a Faustian contract…one many innovators have to consider in order to keep their idea alive.

Funakoshi deeply regretted his Shotokan becoming JKA sport and desired karate to stay true to its Okinawan origins.

Yes I once read that and I believe Shotokai is the branch of Funakoshi’s Karate that aligned closest to his ideas and philosophy; but have you come across a dojo that teaches it?

 

[isshinryuronin37 37]

Funakoshi deeply regretted his Shotokan becoming JKA sport and desired karate to stay true to its Okinawan origins.

Yes I once read that

He even wrote a poem about it. I have a copy of it somewhere - I'll post it when/if I can find it.

I believe Shotokai is the branch of Funakoshi’s Karate that aligned closest to his ideas and philosophy; but have you come across a dojo that teaches it?

Your emoji at the end is fitting as there seems to be some confusion as to Shotokai actually being a distinct style or merely an organizational differentiation (as it started out to be under Funakoshi Gichin). From my online research is seems a split occurred between the old Shotokan and the JKA (who liked to be in charge of Funakoshi's legacy) over, of all things, his funeral arrangements.

One source said Shotokai uses relaxation (perhaps implying chinkuchi, an Okinawan concept) over modern Shotokan's more emphasis on power. I don't know if this is true or not. My conclusion on the subject is simply this: .

 

[Same Trick93 44]

He must be turning over in his grave !
The Eleven Mottos of Masutatsu ‘Mas’ Oyama

Never! I am a vocal critic of ‘taikai’ within the association suggesting that the pursuit of shiny baubles with techniques that cost people their lives is vulgar and denigrates the art. A surprising number of people agree with me. Our once large summer seminars had a compulsory taikai on the final day with us all seminar attendees rostered into the rounds. I’d ask to be removed from the roster as I didn’t want to take part because of my convictions only to hear, “Oh come on now, it’s only a bit of fun”! They’d keep me and my girlfriend on the roster so we just didn’t turn up. A person’s character is built upon the strength of their convictions

I tried to understand the idea of sport swordsmanship by writing an essay and, ironically, won a cash prize for it!

Are Budo and Sports Complimentary? | Tozando

weblog.tozando.com

But maybe if there was prize money in Iaido ?…



No, I try to joke(maybe best point that out).

Good writing of yours there and the rest of that webpage also looks interesting , I will explore it further.

 

[Same Trick93 44]

He even wrote a poem about it. I have a copy of it somewhere - I'll post it when/if I can find it.

Your emoji at the end is fitting as there seems to be some confusion as to Shotokai actually being a distinct style or merely an organizational differentiation (as it started out to be under Funakoshi Gichin). From my online research is seems a split occurred between the old Shotokan and the JKA (who liked to be in charge of Funakoshi's legacy) over, of all things, his funeral arrangements.

One source said Shotokai uses relaxation (perhaps implying chinkuchi, an Okinawan concept) over modern Shotokan's more emphasis on power. I don't know if this is true or not. My conclusion on the subject is simply this: .

Shoto-kai- the group who studied with Gichin Funakoshi.
Shoto-kan - the hall(dojo) were Gichin Funakoshi taught

The branch style Shotokai that developed later by Shigeru Egami, the more fluid of the Shoto branches is stylistically probably most unlike Gishin Funakoshis ….except for the frequent use of ipponken

 

[Same Trick93 44]

He must be turning over in his grave !
The Eleven Mottos of Masutatsu ‘Mas’ Oyama

Never! I am a vocal critic of ‘taikai’ within the association suggesting that the pursuit of shiny baubles with techniques that cost people their lives is vulgar and denigrates the art. A surprising number of people agree with me. Our once large summer seminars had a compulsory taikai on the final day with us all seminar attendees rostered into the rounds. I’d ask to be removed from the roster as I didn’t want to take part because of my convictions only to hear, “Oh come on now, it’s only a bit of fun”! They’d keep me and my girlfriend on the roster so we just didn’t turn up. A person’s character is built upon the strength of their convictions

I tried to understand the idea of sport swordsmanship by writing an essay and, ironically, won a cash prize for it!

Are Budo and Sports Complimentary? | Tozando

weblog.tozando.com

So I can’t see YouTube, so I looked into the Chinese tubes, searching Iaido, and I find what looks as a documentary about Iaido(in Japan) presented by of Kyukushin and K-1 fame Nicholas Pettas, I will watch it later today.