"classic" martial art vs "modern" martial arts

[Dirk WHKD Barmbek]

Thank you all so far for sharing your thoughts and experiences!
This is very inspiring to me to read about all the different perspectives we have and just to think about it further in future while making new experiences.
I hope the same inspiration counts for all of you!

 

[Tez3]

Thank you for sharing this!
It's interesting to think from this angle that marital arts were invented because of the need to survive. Therefore the power and the control of the mind is very necessary to fight successfully as the possibility to get killed needs to be handled in perfect mind control.
While nowadays the so called modern styles claim to be superior to traditional ones it is very interesting to think about all this being conscious of the original background.

Could I gently point out that 'marital ' arts aren't the same as martial arts?

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

The samurai/bushi had 18 martial arts known as the Bugei Juhappon. The list varied but bushi were expected to be accomplished in all eighteen of these:

1. Kyūjutsu (弓術 archery techniques)
2. Bajutsu / Kibajutsu (馬術 / 騎馬術 horsemanship techniques)
3. Dakyū (打毬 horsemanship game - very similar to polo)
4. Kishajutsu (騎射術 archery from horseback)
5. Suiba (水馬 water horsemanship)
6. Suiei (水泳術 swimming including in armour)
7. Sōjutsu (槍術 spear techniques)
8. Kusarigamajutsu (鎖鎌術 sickle and chain techniques)
9. Naginatajutsu (長刀術 or 薙刀術 glaive techniques)
10. Kenjutsu (剣術 sword techniques)
11. Jūjutsu (柔術 unarmed techniques)
12. Iaijutsu (居合術 sword drawing techniques)
13. Hojōjutsu (捕縄術 rope tying techniques)
14. Hananeji (鼻捻 horse nose twister made out of an iron rod)
15. Yoroigumi (鎧組 fighting in armor)
16. Shurikenjutsu (手裏剣術 hand blade throwing techniques)
17. Ishibiya (石火矢 cannon)
18. Teppō (鉄砲 gun

Some suggest -

1. Jūjutsu / Kenpō (柔術 / 拳法 unarmed techniques)
2. Kenjutsu (剣術 sword techniques)
3. Iaijutsu / Battōjutsu (居合術 / 抜刀術 sword drawing techniques)
4. Kusari Fundōjutsu (鎖分銅術 weighted chain techniques)
5. Kusarigamajutsu (鎖鎌術 sickle and chain techniques)
6. Bōjutsu (棒術 staff techniques)
7. Sōjutsu (槍術 spear techniques)
8. Naginatajutsu (長刀術 or 薙刀術 glaive techniques)
9. Suiren (水練 water training)
10. Bajutsu (馬術 horsemanship techniques)
11.Kishajutsu(騎射術 archeryfromhorseback)
12.Jōjutsu(杖術 canetechniques)
13. Kyūjutsu (弓術 archery techniques)
14. Yoroi Kumiuchi (鎧組み打 fighting in armor)
15. Hojōjutsu (捕縄術 rope tying techniques)
16. Jūttejutsu (十手術 iron truncheon techniques)
17. Hōjutsu (砲術 gunnery techniques)
18. Shurikenjutsu (手裏剣術 hand blade throwing techniques)

I’d add ‘catering’, ‘logistics’, ‘communications’ and ‘boot polishing’!

 

[Dirk WHKD Barmbek]

Could I gently point out that 'marital ' arts aren't the same as martial arts?

Of course, thank you, I don't know if there's a meaning in "marital arts", I've just mixed the letters...

 

[Tez3]

Of course, thank you, I don't know if there's a meaning in "marital arts", I've just mixed the letters...

Marital means to do with marriage. I've been married 50 years so if it were that you were asking about I can help Martial arts I've been training for 60 years, and of the two martial arts is easier.

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

Marital arts = shut up and do what you’re told…not later…now!

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

Could I gently point out that 'marital ' arts aren't the same as martial arts?

Um, mostly…

 

[Same Trick93 44]

The samurai/bushi had 18 martial arts known as the Bugei Juhappon. The list varied but bushi were expected to be accomplished in all eighteen of these:

1. Kyūjutsu (弓術 archery techniques)
2. Bajutsu / Kibajutsu (馬術 / 騎馬術 horsemanship techniques)
3. Dakyū (打毬 horsemanship game - very similar to polo)
4. Kishajutsu (騎射術 archery from horseback)
5. Suiba (水馬 water horsemanship)
6. Suiei (水泳術 swimming including in armour)
7. Sōjutsu (槍術 spear techniques)
8. Kusarigamajutsu (鎖鎌術 sickle and chain techniques)
9. Naginatajutsu (長刀術 or 薙刀術 glaive techniques)
10. Kenjutsu (剣術 sword techniques)
11. Jūjutsu (柔術 unarmed techniques)
12. Iaijutsu (居合術 sword drawing techniques)
13. Hojōjutsu (捕縄術 rope tying techniques)
14. Hananeji (鼻捻 horse nose twister made out of an iron rod)
15. Yoroigumi (鎧組 fighting in armor)
16. Shurikenjutsu (手裏剣術 hand blade throwing techniques)
17. Ishibiya (石火矢 cannon)
18. Teppō (鉄砲 gun

Some suggest -

1. Jūjutsu / Kenpō (柔術 / 拳法 unarmed techniques)
2. Kenjutsu (剣術 sword techniques)
3. Iaijutsu / Battōjutsu (居合術 / 抜刀術 sword drawing techniques)
4. Kusari Fundōjutsu (鎖分銅術 weighted chain techniques)
5. Kusarigamajutsu (鎖鎌術 sickle and chain techniques)
6. Bōjutsu (棒術 staff techniques)
7. Sōjutsu (槍術 spear techniques)
8. Naginatajutsu (長刀術 or 薙刀術 glaive techniques)
9. Suiren (水練 water training)
10. Bajutsu (馬術 horsemanship techniques)
11.Kishajutsu(騎射術 archeryfromhorseback)
12.Jōjutsu(杖術 canetechniques)
13. Kyūjutsu (弓術 archery techniques)
14. Yoroi Kumiuchi (鎧組み打 fighting in armor)
15. Hojōjutsu (捕縄術 rope tying techniques)
16. Jūttejutsu (十手術 iron truncheon techniques)
17. Hōjutsu (砲術 gunnery techniques)
18. Shurikenjutsu (手裏剣術 hand blade throwing techniques)

I’d add ‘catering’, ‘logistics’, ‘communications’ and ‘boot polishing’!

What’s the difference between Iaijutsu and Iaido ?

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

What’s the difference between Iaijutsu and Iaido ?

Generally, arts with ‘do’ as a suffix prioritise, in order of emphasis-

1) Aesthetic form
2) Discipline
3) Moral training

Arts with a ‘jutsu’ suffix prioritise, in order of emphasis

1) Combat readiness
2) Discipline
3) Moral training

 

[Same Trick93 44]

Generally, arts with ‘do’ as a suffix prioritise, in order of emphasis-

1) Aesthetic form
2) Discipline
3) Moral training

Arts with a ‘jutsu’ suffix prioritise, in order of emphasis

1) Combat readiness
2) Discipline
3) Moral training

So Iaijutsu is done as kata(two person exercise) ?

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

So Iaijutsu is done as kata(two person exercise) ?

Iai is always solo practise because of the inherent danger in using live blades (or even dull,one’s) against another person. Two,person Kata would be kenjutsu.

Kenjutsu…

Iaijutsu…

 

[Same Trick93 44]

Iai is always solo practise because of the inherent danger in using live blades (or even dull,one’s) against another person. Two,person Kata would be kenjutsu.

Kenjutsu…

Iaijutsu…

Ok, so how do I see the difference from someone doing Iaijutsu and someone doing Iaido

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

Ok, so how do I see the difference from someone doing Iaijutsu and someone doing Iaido

Outwardly, the differences can be quite subtle and hard for non-practitioners to spot because the differences between the two as you can see from the list above, are about the performance attitude. Iaijutsu seems more ‘killing’ in intention; you can see it once you get your ‘eye in’.

Some of the Kata perform a preemptive strike on the enemy before he has even done anything, cutting an enemy in the back as he runs away and there’s even an assassination kata where the swordsman pushes aside bystanders in a crowd in order to strike down the target.

There’s no ‘the Iaidoka never strikes first’, instead, you kill your enemy before he can kill you.

Iaido is more about grace and beauty of technique; there’s a ‘serenity’ to it and the kata have an air of ‘the enemy has the intention of attacking first’ even if they haven’t made a move.

 

[Same Trick93 44]

Outwardly, the differences can be quite subtle and hard for non-practitioners to spot because the differences between the two as you can see from the list above, are about the performance attitude. Iaijutsu seems more ‘killing’ in intention; you can see it once you get your ‘eye in’.

Some of the Kata perform a preemptive strike on the enemy before he has even done anything, cutting an enemy in the back as he runs away and there’s even an assassination kata where the swordsman pushes aside bystanders in a crowd in order to strike down the target.

There’s no ‘the Iaidoka never strikes first’, instead, you kill your enemy before he can kill you.

Iaido is more about grace and beauty of technique; there’s a ‘serenity’ to it and the kata have an air of ‘the enemy has the intention of attacking first’ even if they haven’t made a move.

Sorry, I can’t see YouTube.
So I have to go with your explanation, and I don’t get any wiser from that, you now speak about Kata but previously when I asked if Iaijutsu is done as kata you said no, that it’s solo performance just as Iaido.

Why could not an Iaijutsu performance be aesthetic, and why can’t an aesthetic Iaido performance be of martial intent.
I mean you both use swords of same material, weight and balance as a real weapon so no way the martial intent can be absent or replaced by something fluffy ?

 

[BorntoRaiseHell]

all the Old systems & Ryu are great but nothing to do with real street fighting in 2026...simple as that

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

all the Old systems & Ryu are great but nothing to do with real street fighting in 2026...simple as that

Sorry, I can’t see YouTube.
So I have to go with your explanation, and I don’t get any wiser from that, you now speak about Kata but previously when I asked if Iaijutsu is done as kata you said no, that it’s solo performance just as Iaido.

Iai kata = one person on their own performing (‘solo’)

Kenjutsu kata = two people one acting as attacker, the other as defender.

Why could not an Iaijutsu performance be aesthetic

It is…beauty in its utility.

, and why can’t an aesthetic Iaido performance be of martial intent.

Since it involves a sword being waved about, it could, but intent in in somebody’s head, so unless you can read other people’s minds or have a very good perception developed by years of practise and observation, you won’t really know. ‘Depth of practise’ is important in Iai and not a product of one’s grade but something more ephemeral.

Being a scientist, I’m a sceptic and was sceptical, until a 7th Dan demonstrated this ‘intent’ by first cutting towards me several times as I stepped back from him, with and then without murderous intent (I asked this to be done in a blind trial). When he ‘turned it on’, I consistently felt a primal fear for my life and really needed to get away from him; I was scared! I think it’s due to our evolutionary ability to recognise ‘micro cues’ in others body language, almost imperceptible facial expressions etc summating to warn us of impending danger and to react accordingly. Others will claim some supernatural

I mean you both use swords of same material, weight and balance as a real weapon so no way the martial intent can be absent or replaced by something fluffy ?

I’m not sure I understand. I think it’s down to the summation of ‘micro cues’.

 

[skribs147 167]

Marital arts = shut up and do what you’re told…not later…now!

I've been in some martial arts schools that are this way...

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

all the Old systems & Ryu are great but nothing to do with real street fighting in 2026...simple as that

Are you fighting in the German streets this month?

 

[BorntoRaiseHell]

Are you fighting in the German streets this month?

do i have a crystal ball?

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

do i have a crystal ball?

Well I don’t live in Germany, but I was there recently, it didn’t seem to me to be a hotbed of street violence. Perhaps I wasn’t in the dangerous areas, it felt very safe walking alone late at night.