Changing Forms

[troubleenuf]

OK without going threw the debate of were they came from, how long they have been around, and what they were developed for can someone please answer me this question about the Tae Guek forms.... why would you do forms were the theory just dosnt make any sense at all? For instance Form #1... you turn and do a middle outside block with your back hand. Now if you are blocking a punch you did nothing but block that punch into yourself?!!!
We are in the process of changing all 16 of our schools over to them but I am having second thoughts for sure!!! I asked this same question at a seminar last month given by two of the National poomsa coaches and their answer... they are just movements not ment to follow any theory.

 

[ATC]

...Tae Guek forms.... why would you do forms were the theory just dosnt make any sense at all? For instance Form #1... you turn and do a middle outside block with your back hand.

Not sure I follow you. Il Jang's first move is a 90 degree left turn into walking stance, left hand, left side low block. Please explain.

 

[terryl965]

Not sure I follow you. Il Jang's first move is a 90 degree left turn into walking stance, left hand, left side low block. Please explain.

Yes I am with ATC here, where do you get the other block from?

 

[spinny]

The middle block (with the back hand) is the 7th and 9th movements

 

[Marginal]

Just going from this:

Uh... I have no idea what I'm looking at. I'd have guessed it was a back hand strike rather than a block.

 

[dancingalone]

OK without going threw the debate of were they came from, how long they have been around, and what they were developed for can someone please answer me this question about the Tae Guek forms.... why would you do forms were the theory just dosnt make any sense at all? For instance Form #1... you turn and do a middle outside block with your back hand. Now if you are blocking a punch you did nothing but block that punch into yourself?!!!
We are in the process of changing all 16 of our schools over to them but I am having second thoughts for sure!!! I asked this same question at a seminar last month given by two of the National poomsa coaches and their answer... they are just movements not ment to follow any theory.

I think you've touched on my pet peeve with forms training. If you train them solely as movements, it makes much more sense to break up the form entirely and just practice the basics in short combinations singly and with a partner. Why? Because the turns and retracting arm have no practical use in the philosophy you describe from the National coaches and they just add needless frou-frou to learn and practice.

Now if you inject classical theory into the pattern, the block with the rear hand makes a lot of more sense if it is interpreted as a trap or grab with the retracting arm and then an inside hammer fist to disarm or punish the attacker.

 

[ATC]

I think you've touched on my pet peeve with forms training. If you train them solely as movements, it makes much more sense to break up the form entirely and just practice the basics in short combinations singly and with a partner. Why? Because the turns and retracting arm have no practical use in the philosophy you describe from the National coaches and they just add needless frou-frou to learn and practice.

Now if you inject classical theory into the pattern, the block with the rear hand makes a lot of more sense if it is interpreted as a trap or grab with the retracting arm and then an inside hammer fist to disarm or punish the attacker.

Dancingalone's concept is quite correct. However the form described by the OP is still quite confusing. In Il Jang there is no inside to outside block what so ever. All mid section blocks are done outside to inside. There are no back fists. This is a simple form that only uses 3 types of blocks, low, middle, and high. The only strikes that are not a blocks is a simple punch. There is only one type of kick and that is a front kick. Not sure what the OP is asking or doing.

Here is what use to be on KKW site. - [yt]GWgkCpgeH8k[/yt]

Here is another that is a good rep of the form (better quality). - [yt]wuRP-kSeSPc[/yt]

 

[ATC]

The middle block (with the back hand) is the 7th and 9th movements

Outside to inside block not a back fist or hand. This is a simple block. See my post right above and look at the form done correctly. If someone is trying to learn from a video then this is a good case for why that is a bad idea. You need someone to expain what is being done and why. Also how apply the techniques in a pratical sense.

 

[granfire]

you mean the block moving the forearm across the face? Add a little round step to it, it's a wonderfull block. Not sure where you see the problem in it.

A couple of years ago the ITA changed all forms around. The merit of that can be discussed, but in essence we learned a complete new set of forms (and just similar enough to the old ones to drive you batty).

A form is just as good as the elements that are in there. Not just the sum of the parts, but the separate moves by themselves.

I have no idea if one set of forms is better than the other, frankly I doubt it, it's what you put into it that decides what you get out of the deal.

 

[spinny]

Outside to inside block not a back fist or hand. This is a simple block. See my post right above and look at the form done correctly. If someone is trying to learn from a video then this is a good case for why that is a bad idea. You need someone to expain what is being done and why. Also how apply the techniques in a pratical sense.

Uh oh. I think you misunderstood what I meant. That move I know as "middle block." And by "back hand" I didn't mean the part of the hand that would make contact with a target, but instead meant that its the arm on the opposite side of the body as the lead leg. Back leg...back hand...Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The application of this particular move troubled me once, but here's how I understand it now: When defending the opponents left-arm punch, it opens them up to a punch to the solar plexus.

 

[spinny]

OK without going threw the debate of were they came from, how long they have been around, and what they were developed for can someone please answer me this question about the Tae Guek forms.... why would you do forms were the theory just dosnt make any sense at all? For instance Form #1... you turn and do a middle outside block with your back hand. Now if you are blocking a punch you did nothing but block that punch into yourself?!!!
We are in the process of changing all 16 of our schools over to them but I am having second thoughts for sure!!! I asked this same question at a seminar last month given by two of the National poomsa coaches and their answer... they are just movements not ment to follow any theory.

The national-level poomsae people I've talked to seemed to be only concerned with training to do poomsae perfectly for competition, and application is not part of competition.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I am a creature of habit. I only know palgwe forms and my club only teaches palgwe forms so these taeguk forms just seem weird to me , short stances etc . Id go to pieces if I tried to learn the taegeks

 

[granfire]

The national-level poomsae people I've talked to seemed to be only concerned with training to do poomsae perfectly for competition, and application is not part of competition.

Well, the form is the form, knowing what the element are capable of doing is another. Most people don't bother with the why and barely with the how.



But something else, I am always seriously frustrated trying to explain or understand forms written in forums while discussing it with people from other organizations. The terminology is not uniform, seriously confusing!

 

[ATC]

Uh oh. I think you misunderstood what I meant. That move I know as "middle block." And by "back hand" I didn't mean the part of the hand that would make contact with a target, but instead meant that its the arm on the opposite side of the body as the lead leg. Back leg...back hand...Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The application of this particular move troubled me once, but here's how I understand it now: When defending the opponents left-arm punch, it opens them up to a punch to the solar plexus.

Gotcha. Yes you are correct. It is simply an inside block, regardless of the attacking punch you will block to the inside then stepping and punching to the outer ribs that would be turned in. Or you would still be doing an inside block and as you stated opening the middle of the opponent for a solorplex strike.

Either way the concept is rather straight forward and a simple one to understand so I still fail to see what the OP is asking or wanting to know. There is not any hidden technique in what he is looking at.

 

[Tez3]

Deoes nobody then do what is described in Japanese as Bunkai? Looking into the forms/kata for their uses. Iain Abernethy is a leading exponent of this and his teaching works regardless of style, it's really worth looking at his teachings because merely going through the motions is surely never the sole intention of learning forms/patterns/kata.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart1.asp

"Bunkai is sometimes believed to be a high level study that is only open to masters who possess "hidden knowledge": nothing could be further for the truth. Armed with the right information, bunkai study is something that all martial artists can enjoy; regardless of grade or experience. The kata and their applications can be understood by anyone who knows the movements of kata and has an understanding of the basic ideas we'll be covering in this series."

"The Okinawan school children were taught the kata so that they could gain the benefits of increased discipline and physical fitness, but the combative meanings of the movements were deliberately obscured in order to ensure training was safe and appropriate for those of a young age. Therefore terms like "Inner-Block", "Outer-Block", "Rising-Block" etc stem from the "watered down" children's karate and not the potent fighting art developed by the warriors of Okinawa ."

I really do recommend having a good read, there's a couple of free ebooks as well as a magazine to download, it really isn't just karate, it's martial arts.

 

[SJON]

Against a right haymaker, defender in natural stance:

- Take a very short drop step forwards with the left foot towards the attacker's right shoulder and take the haymaker on the raised left arm so that you catch his bicep with your elbow.
- Short step in with right foot as you twist back towards him and hammer inwards/downwards on the side of the jaw with the "left-hand rear inward block".
- Grab whatever is available with your left hand, step through with the left foot and drive through with a right hand "switching" straight punch to whatever target is available.

There you go: a simple, effective bunseok for the first of the two "inward block" sequences. That's what I teach for that sequence.

Best regards,

Simon

 

[MSUTKD]

the national-level poomsae people i've talked to seemed to be only concerned with training to do poomsae perfectly for competition, and application is not part of competition.

wrong!

 

[MSUTKD]

The technical part of poomsae competition is just the first step. Yes, we are very concerned in doing the poomsae correct. All strikes, blocks and kicks are “target appropriate” and all stances are exact in their measurement. Momentum, balance and height are controlled, as they should be for a proper form.

The next stages, however, are about presentation: rhythm, flow and power. Understanding the “application” is one of the most important aspects of poomsae competition. Without this element the practitioner looks just like every other competitor. When the form is performed with the actual attack/defense applications in mind it comes alive and in competition your score should be higher.

Robotic poomsae is easy, I see it 99% of the time but to express yourself and your skills is very difficult and I am still trying to wrap my head around it.

The real problem is not the “non-application practicing taekwondo’in” but rather the individuals who cannot physically even do a kick properly, control their body’s movement and display consistent stances; work on that first then ask about the boonhae.

 

[Laurentkd]

wrong!

I was waiting for your reply to that one :rofl:

 

[spinny]

wrong!

Sorry, but that was the impression I got.

The technical part of poomsae competition is just the first step. Yes, we are very concerned in doing the poomsae correct. All strikes, blocks and kicks are “target appropriate” and all stances are exact in their measurement. Momentum, balance and height are controlled, as they should be for a proper form.

The next stages, however, are about presentation: rhythm, flow and power. Understanding the “application” is one of the most important aspects of poomsae competition. Without this element the practitioner looks just like every other competitor. When the form is performed with the actual attack/defense applications in mind it comes alive and in competition your score should be higher.

Robotic poomsae is easy, I see it 99% of the time but to express yourself and your skills is very difficult and I am still trying to wrap my head around it.

Thank you for sharing your "secrets"
Glad to know not all of them want to be robots.

The real problem is not the “non-application practicing taekwondo’in” but rather the individuals who cannot physically even do a kick properly, control their body’s movement and display consistent stances; work on that first then ask about the boonhae.

Amen.