different interpretations of forms

[bignick]

i was practicing the palgwe forms the other day and i got to thinking...

my head instructor says one of the theories in forms is that if you are attacked that the "person" that attacked can't be standing at the end of the form...basically, you have to deal with all the threats and they have to be "neutralized"

reanalyzed this way...some of the different moves in the forms become purely defensive stances...because there is never a follow up attack to the "attacker"

to get to my point..in palgwe il chang....you start by turning to the left and low blocking, step, and right middle block...and do the same thing going the other direction...at the top of the "I" formation..you do a knifehand block followed by a middle block...two "defensive moves" without a follow up...leaving the people that "attacked" you untouched at the end of the form...i got to thinking about how to settle this problem...and i've been wondering if you could reinterpret the middle blocks as hammerfist strikes...perhaps to the temple...

just wondering what others thought...

 

[Han-Mi]

No, I'd say that your instructor's explanation of the forms was overly general. No disrespect. Basically, each form has it's own unique interpretation, and should be done differently than the rest of the forms. I do not know a lot about the Palgue forms because I only know what my instructor has told me. He stopped using them and we use the Tae Guek forms now. Basically, each form is used to give you an introduction to the use of movements in combinations with some basic footwork.

Of course, I could be completely wrong. but thats my $0.02

 

[bignick]

thanks for the input, like i said...this is just an idea that popped into my head...and was wondering what everybody thought...

 

[bignick]

I'd say that your instructor's explanation of the forms was overly general. No disrespect

No offense taken, it is suppose to be a very general theory...and i can't speak about the tae guek forms...cause we don't do those...and yes, i agree that the purpose of the forms is teach differnt techniques and footwork...but in the palgwe patterns it's very easy to see that there are combinations of "defense/ counter attack"...in almost every case a block is followed by some kind of strike...sometimes it's two or three blocks in a row followed by a strike...but there are few situations where there is no followup...and i was just wondering how people interepreted these

 

[Rob Broad]

I was at Dillman seminar in Mar of 2001 and he went through 3 TKD palgwe forms and he showed a lot of neat stuff. You might want to attend one of his seminars and ask him about what he sees in the break down.

 

[bignick]

do you know when the next one will be held....

being a poor college student...my travel funds are limited...

 

[Rob Broad]

Check his webpage www.dillman.com

 

[Marginal]

No offense taken, it is suppose to be a very general theory...and i can't speak about the tae guek forms...cause we don't do those...and yes, i agree that the purpose of the forms is teach differnt techniques and footwork...but in the palgwe patterns it's very easy to see that there are combinations of "defense/ counter attack"...in almost every case a block is followed by some kind of strike...sometimes it's two or three blocks in a row followed by a strike...but there are few situations where there is no followup...and i was just wondering how people interepreted these

Some schools of thought would argue that the blocks are the ends in of themselves. That the blocks should be incapacitating the attacker's limb and so on.

 

[bignick]

very true...and i know full well the power of a great block...my forearms don't hurt anymore...but i used to have the bruises to prove they can work...and i thought of this myself...but i don't know if i'm comfortable with the theory of stopping the attack by just incapacitating a single limb...we've got three others to use after all...i'm not saying your wrong...i think forms are open to different interpretations...like any art...they can mean different things to different people...i'll have to ask the head instructor the next time i see him...he's been away for awhile because of some problems...thanks for your theory...i do think it's a good one!

 

[Martial Tucker]

Some schools of thought would argue that the blocks are the ends in of themselves. That the blocks should be incapacitating the attacker's limb and so on.

I am a student of about 8 years. So I have a fair amount of experience, but by no means am I an expert. Our school is quite traditional and primarily focuses on the Palgwe forms, but we also learn the Taeguk forms. Both sets of forms include movements in various directions that end in what would be classified as a block.

I have two thoughts on this...the first tends to agree with Marginal's statement in that in our school, it is stressed that a block, if done properly, is also a strike. (And for that matter, a strike is a block) As such, it would certainly be possible to at least momentarily disable an attacker with a well placed block executed with proper "attitude".

Second thought.... I have never really thought of poomse as an exercise in dealing with multiple attackers. IMHO, it would be totally unrealistic to train for multiple attackers by going first in one direction, then another, and so on, as if these attackers were nice enough to only come at you one-at-a-time, like in the movies. If I am envisioning an imaginary attack while doing my forms, I prefer to focus on the likelihood of one attacker moving actively around me while I react to his movements and move towards him. This would make the moves ending with a block more understandable, I suppose.

Actually, I have more of a interest as to the reason of the 270 degree turns that are often made. Regardless of how many opponents I am fighting, I find it difficult to understand when, if I need to attack someone to my right, why wouldn't I turn 90 degrees to my right, as opposed to 270 degrees to my left to end up in the same place. Thoughts on this are welcome!

 

[Marginal]

Another thing to consider... (And the validity of this is up to you since I only saw it mentioned in a documentary on Shotokan once.) Some forms are designed to address multiple attackers, and some aren't.

 

[bignick]

i've often wondered about those turns too...i don't have a good explanation...anyone else?

 

[MichiganTKD]

Even within our organization, forms are open to interpretation. Our Instructor never spent a great deal of time discussing exactly what each technique was doing. I think he wanted us to reach our own conclusions. So in Palgue Il Chang, it could very well be either a front block OR a hammer fist to the side of the head.
The important thing is how you execute the form, not necessarily what each technique is doing. If your stance is bad, you don't use enough waist action, your accuracy is off, and you have no stopping power, it won't matter what technique it is, it won't work.
I believe Jigaro Kano, the founder of Judo, was quoted as saying "How you practice is more important than what you practice." It is not so important what each technique does, because it could be several different techniques. The important thing is to practice with the mindset:
1. Form should make your body stronger
2. Practice accuracy in each technique
3. Practice stopping power
4. Practice good stances.

 

[XxTKDPenguinxX]

I have found this interesting. Being of a different style, I have not witnessed any of our forms (so far) ending a range of movements in a block. This, of course, does not count for the end of the poom-sae in which it could be read as a "guard" position.

Each of our techniques require a sure "strike" of some sort. A couple of blocks thrown will ultimately lead up to a powerful counterstike or two.

I also agree with several posts here... A block can easily disrupt an attacker. Especially when a pressure point was struck with a kife hand or hammer fist. Heck... even a block with a shin could bring tears to the eyes of an assailant who's unprepared.

 

[bignick]

TKDPenguin...by the way...what style of tkd do you practice?

block can easily disrupt an attacker. Especially when a pressure point was struck with a kife hand or hammer fist. Heck... even a block with a shin could bring tears to the eyes of an assailant who's unprepared.

without a doubt...the "a block is a strike and a strike is a block" is a very prevalent theory...and one i absolutely believe...

Forms are my passion...they're easily my favorite part of tkd...naturally i spend a lot of my time thinking about them and i ofter try to reinterpret the movements in different ways...

Even within our organization, forms are open to interpretation. Our Instructor never spent a great deal of time discussing exactly what each technique was doing

yes...they are very much open ended in our school as well...the general rule of thumb is...if you know what you're doing and your theory makes sense, that's the important thing...

i think that the important thing is you have a reason for doing each move...if you're going through the motions without thinking...why?...you're missing the point of forms...

 

[bignick]

i think i also need to clear up what i meant by "defensive stance" in my original post...i think the best example of what i mean is in palgwe chil chang when at the the top of the formation you do and x-block followd by a high sidekick(target most likely throat or face...), immediatley following this you land in a back stance, or T-stance...whatever want to call it...and execute a middle knifehand block....if you just sidekicked an attacker in the throat...chances are you won't be blocking anything from them again for a while...but you do a block all the same...our theory is that its just a defensive posture...watching to make sure the attacker is truly down...being prepared for a followup attack...

 

[XxTKDPenguinxX]

Nick,

I belong to the, ever under debate, American Taekwondo Association. Song Ahm is the style created by the Eternal Grand Master H.U.Lee. My training is deeper than TKD, but that is my current passion. I studied Issinryu Karate for years before.

 

[bignick]

ah...the ATA that i always hear about...just as everyone always hears bad things about the ITF...or in my case...the WTF...

i know your color belt forms are different...but what about black belt and above...
do you practice koryo, kumkang, taebaek...etc? or do you have others for those as well?

 

[XxTKDPenguinxX]

Our forms are different for 1st Dan and above. Shimjun is 1st Dan form. It was sort of difficult to learn (guess its suppose to be, huh?) but they are teaching us to strike without the use of reaction force (chambers).
As far as the forms for the black belts, I can say that I have seen the forms for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and now 4th degree, and have not seen any flow of techniques that end in a defensive position.
However, there is a technique in Shimjun that is performed after the flow of knife hand low block while in rear stance (cat stance), front kick, jump hook kick and it end with a "9 block".
This 9 block, if you don't already know, is the position of one arm near the chest while one is slightly bent low (both hands in a fist). It is to resemble a numeral "9". I have heard several interpretations to this movement.
The first is that it is used a an arm bar/break. The second is that it has no funtional purpose, other than to offer a pause or a "pose" after a series of action (this coming from the son of our founding Grand Master). The last was shown during a live re-enactment of this form using several attackers. In this we were shown that, after the hook kick, the poor sap that just got knocked in the head, spun about to fall against you and the movement was to break their neck.
This last interpretation is a little further fetched than the other two.:: shrugs :: Hard telling. I like to view them as the "pose" technique. Ya'know the ones... <insert cheesey actor smile and poorly dubbed voiceovers> The hero just got done whoopin' up on the ninjas that had just got finished swarming the Lord's encampment. Jump kicks, karate chops, palm strikes.. death touch, etc, etc, etc. After the ninja lay about the ground, our hearo strikes the "Look at my beautiful smile and handsome charm. I am the master.. now scope out my pecs."

 

[bignick]

our hearo strikes the "Look at my beautiful smile and handsome charm. I am the master.. now scope out my pecs."

You've been reading my autobiography?

Seriously, though...thanks for the info, it's amazing how the same move can be interpreted into to so many different meanings...