Buddhist theory of ninja origin

Gina

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Lets put things into perspective a bit.
Tradition has it that the ancestors of the people we would latter call the ninja were once the rulers, generals, priest etc of Japan. Unfortunately these people were defeated in battle by Heike troops in the 10/11th century. In reality this is probably little different to how England once controlled by the Saxons were defeated by the Normans, or previous to that how the Romano British were defeated by the Anglo-Saxon.

So is it not unlikely that the people of Japan, once defeated took refuge in the mountains of Japan, namely the Joshinetsu plateu, where Iga and Koga area are to be found.

Now its also likely that the ancestors of the ninja did study some form of what we today would call religion. what exactly they studied however would probably be hard to define, just like how its hard to understand Christianity a thousand years ago. But it has been suggested that these people practiced a mix of Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto and traditional folk belief.
Lets face it living in the mountains of Iga, these people must have come into contact with various mystics, generals, tacticians, healers etc that either lived there. or were fleeing their country and hence adopted that knowledge, spiritual or otherwise to help them deal with the oppresive times they lived in.

History however also shows us that when ever there are religions in opposition there is often aggresion. Even when one of those religions does not threaten the mainstream religion of the time. Hitler managed to murder 6 million people, many of them Jewish, and there is of course at the moment a war going on to destroy anything that is not Muslim also known as Jihad (Holy War). Thankfully only perpetrated by a few individuals. Not to mention Ireland, The Spanish Inquisition and the witch hunts of Europe.

Of course I also realise that behind these religious wars, religion is often only used as an excuse, as there are often other hidden objectives, but none the less people who have different views, we rarely try to understand. Instead we tend to target them for reprisal. whether you call it homophobia, racism, sexism, or anti Stephen Hayesism.

It is therefore highly likely that the ancestors of the ninja were attacked by the forces in power. In fact did'nt Oda Nobunaga attempt to wipe out the area of Iga?

To defend themselves these people probably resorted to using the skills they had been taught over the many hundreds of years that they had been oppressed, hence ninjutsu. However I think its wrong to think that Ninjutsu suddenly came into being, it evolved over hundreds of years. Its really only today that we think of it as an art. Stephen Hayes once stated that if you asked a ninja what it was he did he would probably say 'No Name, No art' but of course in Japanese. well old Japanese.

Again history is full of peoples that were threatened by the ruling class and although outnumbered and technologically inferior fought back and sometimes won. When the the Vikings attacked England, there were groups led by Hereward the Wake striking from the swamp lands of the fens. Similarly we also have legends of outlaws such as Robin Hood. And of course victories against the armed settlers of America by what they refered to as primitive savages weilding little more than knives and tomahawks. I won't even mention Vietnam, Afghanistan etc.and of course stories of how American frontiers men in the American war of Independence kicked our butts. Oh i'm English by the way.

Yes England sent ship loads of trained soldiers to the Americas, and we were defeated by men who's skills were learnt from, hunting, and shooting game and being able to conceal themselves and live off the land. Not very unlike the Ninja.

Its likely that the ancestors of the ninja were studying some kind of religion first before they had to resort to physical methods of defence, rather than the other way round. After all Abraham Maslow states that when one has peace, and time on your hands one can concentrate on the higher things in life such as art, religion etc. It is highly unlikely however that once at war, one has the time for these higher ideals, as one is simply trying to survive.


As for the slight on Stephen Hayes not getting the history correct, Well I disagree. History by its very nature is open to interpretation. Also I think one has to remember that when Stephen wrote those books Ninjutsu was very little known and I believe he was trying to write a book to promote an art that all people could understand. Yes I agree that maybe not all points of history may not be in there, but after all we are all fanatics on the subject and could probably pick any history of the Japanese martial arts apart. Remember Stephen Hayes was not writing a history book, he was writing an introduction to the art that was unknown in the western world. I often pick up books on archaeology written for beginners in the subject, and I can easily question, why the author didn't include this or that. But as a person with a degree in archaeology I have to appreciate that its for beginners and when Stephen Hayes wrote those books we were all beginners, maybe we all still are.

Bear in mind there are also publishers constraints, constant reedits at the editors request and possibly also constraints from Hombu itself about what could be included in those early books. In fact in the early days Hatsumi Sensei restricted his students from using the names of techniques to the general public. Hence technique names like Koku, Renyo etc were kept secret and could not be published, yet at the same time Hatsumi sensei was bringing out videos with kata mentioned like Ten, Omai etc, and after 20 years in this art i still don't know where they come from.

I actually believe that in the early days Hatsumi Sensei was trying to keep this art restrictive, and I believe it still continues.
I actually think that Stephen Hayes did exactly what he set out to do. Present a positive image of this art. Not one about assasination, and those other negative things that has been associated to the art by much less responsible authors, We should also remember that without what Stephen Hayes wrote in those early days we might all still be practicing Kung Fu or something. In fact only just last night I had two member who came to my Dojo because they became fascinated by the art through the books by Stephen hayes.

Finally, Jim you question why we contiinue to study ninjutsu when we live in such peaceful times. Well simply that peace can be shattered. here in Europe over the last ten years we have seen countries like Albania, Croatia, Serbia, and others be plunged into war, with people starving on the street, people being raped, murdered and made homeless. Wouldn't Ninjutsu be a great skill to have if that happened in your country. And if you think that it can't happen to you, just remember 911. An attack on the most powerful country in the world by aq handful of terrorists. That attack could have quite easily have been on a nuclear power station, which could have seen whole states devastated to be plunged into environment when you really need these skills.
 

Connovar

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Please dont take my note on Steve Hayes as being negative. I had trained for many years with Steve and Rumiko and I think highly of them. In fact even though I am not Buddhist I like the spiritual slant they bring to their training.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Gina said:
Lets put things into perspective a bit.
Tradition has it that the ancestors of the people we would latter call the ninja were once the rulers, generals, priest etc of Japan. Unfortunately these people were defeated in battle by Heike troops in the 10/11th century.
Yeah, and Islam is to blame for all of the world's terrorist activities.
(It's not that simple)

Gina said:
Lets face it living in the mountains of Iga, these people must have come into contact with various mystics, generals, tacticians, healers etc that either lived there. or were fleeing their country and hence adopted that knowledge, spiritual or otherwise to help them deal with the oppresive times they lived in.
Oppressive how?

Gina said:
History however also shows us that when ever there are religions in opposition there is often aggresion.
Opposition against what?

Gina said:
It is therefore highly likely that the ancestors of the ninja were attacked by the forces in power. In fact did'nt Oda Nobunaga attempt to wipe out the area of Iga?
Yes, but he hardly did so out of the will to subjugate people of a different religious standpoint.

Gina said:
However I think its wrong to think that Ninjutsu suddenly came into being, it evolved over hundreds of years. Its really only today that we think of it as an art. Stephen Hayes once stated that if you asked a ninja what it was he did he would probably say 'No Name, No art' but of course in Japanese. well old Japanese.
And if you ask Hatsumi sensei if you can be the next Soke, he might say yes...he has done so in the past.

Gina said:
Again history is full of peoples that were threatened by the ruling class and although outnumbered and technologically inferior fought back and sometimes won. When the the Vikings attacked England, there were groups led by Hereward the Wake striking from the swamp lands of the fens. Similarly we also have legends of outlaws such as Robin Hood. And of course victories against the armed settlers of America by what they refered to as primitive savages weilding little more than knives and tomahawks. I won't even mention Vietnam, Afghanistan etc.and of course stories of how American frontiers men in the American war of Independence kicked our butts. Oh i'm English by the way.
That's all fine and dandy. But what if we were to stick to the topic at hand, namely Japanese medieval history?

Gina said:
Its likely that the ancestors of the ninja were studying some kind of religion first before they had to resort to physical methods of defence, rather than the other way round.
And exactly why is that?

Gina said:
It is highly unlikely however that once at war, one has the time for these higher ideals, as one is simply trying to survive.
Exactly, because if war precedes peace, then martial arts have to be studied before literary and spiritual arts, right?

Gina said:
As for the slight on Stephen Hayes not getting the history correct, Well I disagree. History by its very nature is open to interpretation. Also I think one has to remember that when Stephen wrote those books Ninjutsu was very little known and I believe he was trying to write a book to promote an art that all people could understand.
And at the same time he states that the history of the nine ryuha is not meant for the masses...
And where are the literary sources that may be referenced in support of Hayes's theories?

Gina said:
Bear in mind there are also publishers constraints, constant reedits at the editors request and possibly also constraints from Hombu itself about what could be included in those early books.
So you're saying that it's dangerous to let the public in on the fact that the historical ninja were more often than not specialized bushi rather than oppressed freedom fighters...?

Gina said:
Finally, Jim you question why we contiinue to study ninjutsu when we live in such peaceful times.
We don't. We practice budo taijutsu/ninpo taijutsu.

Gina said:
Wouldn't Ninjutsu be a great skill to have if that happened in your country. And if you think that it can't happen to you, just remember 911. An attack on the most powerful country in the world by aq handful of terrorists. That attack could have quite easily have been on a nuclear power station, which could have seen whole states devastated to be plunged into environment when you really need these skills.
Only thing is, the methods of information gathering, espionage, disguise and impersonation etc. etc. were adapted to the world of medieval Japan. As such, Hatsumi sensei doesn't teach very much ninjutsu but focuses on taijutsu instead.
 

Don Roley

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Gina said:
Lets put things into perspective a bit.
Tradition has it that the ancestors of the people we would latter call the ninja were once the rulers, generals, priest etc of Japan.

Uh, no. If you wish to press the point, please give exact quotes and sources please.

Gina said:
To defend themselves these people probably resorted to using the skills they had been taught over the many hundreds of years that they had been oppressed, hence ninjutsu.

Ok, stop right there. This is the core fo the problem. Give some exact quotes and sources for your belief that the ninja were an oppressed group. The idea that the ninja had to develop ninjutsu in order to survive oppression is a myth that I am trying to drive a stake through the heart of. Let us start with you trying to come up with some source for the idea that because of religious differences the ninja were oppressed. Again, exact quotes, cites and sources. Please no more of this wild speculation and trying to draw parralels between Japan and another convinient country.
 
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ninjaJim

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The only sources I can quote are Steves books and the book on Shingon mentioned earlier. It was really the book on Shingon that allowed me to see more things more clearly. Check it out and you'll be amazed. The issues of how Buddhism is taught is paralell to how we are taught. I'm mainly talking about the issue of some getting the entire candy store and others getting only a few gumdrops. This aspect was the real thrust and intent of the post.

As far as religous influences go and how it applies what modern training should be.... Look at Takamatsu and Hatsumi's makeup. They were/are not irrational technicians but instead reflect the finest elements of the art. The most important elements include certain technical but mostly spiritual applications of the art. The soke is who we should emulate and incorporate but notice I did not say duplicate. Each person and school has their own "brand" of enlightenment. (There is only one truth though)

Basically what I said in the first message without painting the whole picture was that the ninja "began" when religeon influenced them. The type of ideallic person that we should strive to be was that group of technicians at their finest hour. Sure, the art was there before but it was simply a set of skills for self serving gain.

Don I submit to you deductive reasoning and observation as my reference. History has reference's to many aspects of what we study but in the end it is up to us to determine the truth. In religeon it is possible to be so overinformed that we find ourselves deceived or even worse, lost. In all things we must find a balance.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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ninjaJim said:
The only sources I can quote are Steves books and the book on Shingon mentioned earlier.
Well, there you have it. Do some research for yourself.

ninjaJim said:
It was really the book on Shingon that allowed me to see more things more clearly.
Yeah, we can tell. As opposed to, by the way...?

ninjaJim said:
The most important elements include certain technical but mostly spiritual applications of the art.
There is nothing but hard training to it!!! Even Hayes himself wrote that in his book "Lore of the Shinobi Warrior".

ninjaJim said:
The soke is who we should emulate and incorporate but notice I did not say duplicate. Each person and school has their own "brand" of enlightenment. (There is only one truth though)
That's true, but truth and reality are not necessarily the same thing.

ninjaJim said:
Basically what I said in the first message without painting the whole picture was that the ninja "began" when religeon influenced them.
Proof, please?
 

heretic888

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ninjaJim,

The Buddhist "magic" that you are referring to is mikkyo. Next to the Zen sects, the Tendai-shu and Shingon-shu were among the most popular Buddhist schools for the bushi class. When in Japanese history were the mikkyo schools actively persecuted, discriminated, or oppressed?? And, by whom??

To my knowledge, the only religious groups that were openly attacked in Japan were the Jodo-shin-shu and Christianity. I could tell you precise dates and details concerning their respective oppressions --- such as Oda Nobunaga's campaigns against the Ikko-Ikki during the latter half of the 16th century, or the Tokugawa's conflicts with the Christian rebels of the 17th century. Can the same be said of the mikkyo sects??

But, even then, the Jodo-shin-shu and Christianity were only persecuted because they became a tool for political rebellion and defiance. The rulers at the time didn't care one way or the other about their philosophical beliefs, only their political relationship toward the status quo.

Sorry, man, but I just don't see it.

Additionally, it is my understanding that Oda Nobunaga's reason for invading Iga was to "save face" in lieu of his son Nobuo's misadventures and subsequent failures. He didn't actually seem all that interested in Iga until Nobuo got involved (without his father's permission).

Laterz. :asian:
 

Mickey Mullins

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Hello,

You wrote:
Basically what I said in the first message without painting the whole picture was that the ninja "began" when religeon influenced them.
And once again this point is moot,ninjutsu began with the very first living organisms(not only humans).Hatsumi Sensei has stated numerous times that this concept is NOT only Japanese,religion based,or able to be labled at all- therefore I believe it is the core that drives everything that lives(why do you think the innumerous referances to things such as grass,the sun,animals,etc.).It is the very essence of instinct/survival.Unless of course we can't get past "the box" of labels and titles.

How many times have you heard referances made to the mother tiger,the changing seasons,or whatever?It is only man that is influenced by things such as religion,titles,and linear thinking.Food for thought.Natural justice is natures justice.Toda Sensei wrote that man should not sway to personal desires,I believe he meant the heart too.Therefore ninjutsu/ninpo is very much deeper than mere men and their wants and desires.Shaker of salt.

Fire away!
Mickey Mullins
 
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ninjaJim

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjaJim
Basically what I said in the first message without painting the whole picture was that the ninja "began" when religeon influenced them.

Proof, please?

Last time I'll say it. After this what's the point? Ninja, as we should emulate MUST have a spiritual component. Yes, there were thugs, mercenaries, hustlers, tacticians, technicians and others who may have been described as ninja but I am speaking of an idyllic aspiriation and when that type of person came into being. I freely admit my wording was wrong and misleading but it was still the truth in this regard.

What you probably wanted was a highly detailed doctrinal dissertation, well referenced non-thought requiring infomercial about the study of traditional ninjutsu. The question was "What is Traditional Ninjutsu"? The answer I gave was more fitted to the question what should the study of traditional ninjutsu be.:rolleyes:

Sure, you can study under someone who has raw data on history, techniques and other specifics. What this is known as is the partial experience. A mere study which is interesting but severely lacking.

Each person's path is right and appropriate for them because it is what they have worked for; the sum of their efforts. In this repect one cannot blame another for where they are. You can accept them for where they are and hopefully help them to realize a better existence.

My question to you is if you think that it's OK to not include the religous aspect of the training? To me it would be OK to train up to a point but it would be a shame not to. Anything less than the full immersion provides some gain but denies an entire world of experiences. It's kind of like getting married vs dating. The dating experience is very shallow and self serving for the most part. Marriage, when practiced right, is an evolution and redifining of one's self. It's rewards are different and far greater from the other path:) .
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir never married, and they did good for themselves. Gee, I wonder who would be the most suitable person to symbolize Nelson Algren in this analogy...?
 

Shinkengata

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Rules of Engagement

1: Argue not with Roley if you fear ownage. With Roley, ownage is imminent.

2: Proof of claims must be present to prevent ownage.

3: Study of Tew-Ryu, Dux-Ryu, or other "American Ninjitsu" automatically qualifies you for immediate ownage in the event of verbal sparring over Historical facts.

4: Make damn sure your kamae is correct before showing it to the world while acting as an authority on Ninja.

Hope that helps.:ultracool
 

clfsean

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That's not rules of engagement... that's common sense!


Great breakdown of things!!!
 

Don Roley

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Shinkengata said:
Rules of Engagement

1: Argue not with Roley if you fear ownage. With Roley, ownage is imminent.

2: Proof of claims must be present to prevent ownage.

3: Study of Tew-Ryu, Dux-Ryu, or other "American Ninjitsu" automatically qualifies you for immediate ownage in the event of verbal sparring over Historical facts.

4: Make damn sure your kamae is correct before showing it to the world while acting as an authority on Ninja.

Hope that helps.:ultracool

Compassion is not a Roley word!!!!!!

Ok, I have real problems with the way those trying to make the case for Buddhist opression being the cause for the birth of ninjutsu. Just the comments and attitudes the proponents are taking strikes me as fundementially wrong. Gina spends more time talking about Vikings than giving even one fact that relates to Japan. And she throws around a lot of terms like "must have", "likely", "Probably" and "History however also shows us that..." Is it relaly too much to ask for specific facts instead of theories made up by people who can't even read the language? Jim, why MUST we have a spiritual component? Says who? Why must the patterns that we see in other cultures have anything to do with Japan? Maybe they do sometimes, but why has differnet cultrues and nations turned out so differnet if we beleive that one size fits all and what happened to Christianity in Europe must be the same as Buddhism in Japan? Etc, etc, etc.

Let us look at the one peice of information that Jim was willing to post. Heretic888 did a good job pointing out that various groups fought one another not over the fact that they were a different religion, but because of very seccular matters. Here is what he said,

But, even then, the Jodo-shin-shu and Christianity were only persecuted because they became a tool for political rebellion and defiance. The rulers at the time didn't care one way or the other about their philosophical beliefs, only their political relationship toward the status quo.

If you take a look at the pages you scanned, they back up what he said and not your idea that the groups at Koya and Hiezan were persecuted because of what they believed. There is not one reference to the Buddhist magic that you started talking about in your first post. Top this up with the fact that the development of ninjutsu was prior to the timeline in your source.

But starting to posts facts like that is a good first step. I can point out how they are not what you think they are and not have to beat you guys over the head for making endless speculations without an ounce of reality to back it up.
 

Floating Egg

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Shogun

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Bujinkan arts are based on Shinto and Buddhism. Japanese culture is as well. I think shogun looked at the various Shinto elements in the art (and there are many) and just reacted to the idea that somehow Buddhism was the sole reason for the art being created as Jim seems to be trying to say.
thanks don.
I did phrase that wrong. I meant to say it is not strictly buddhist. obviously, buddhism has been in Japan for several hundred years so there will be that too. It just is not based 100% on buddhism which was the initial arguement. sorry if it caused confusion.

KE
 

Shinkengata

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I read somewhere(so you know if im wrong, it's not my fault. lol) that Takamatsu Sensei's religious practices were a mix of Shinto and Mikkyo. Not that it really matters, just figured it kinda ties into this discussion.
 

Kizaru

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1.
Shinkengata said:
religious practices were a mix of Shinto and Mikkyo. Not that it really matters, just figured it kinda ties into this discussion.
"Mikkyo" isn't a religion unto itself; it's a group of teachings that are part of Tendai sect and Shingon sect Buddhism.

In Japan, prior to 1872 Buddhism and Shinto were often combined, and in some cases, this was refered to as "Shugen" (more information here: http://members.shaw.ca/shugendo/intro.html).

heretic888 said:
When in Japanese history were the mikkyo schools actively persecuted, discriminated, or oppressed?? And, by whom??
In 1872, the Meiji Emporer proclaimed himself a living god and as the head of Shinto, separated Buddhism and Shinto in Japan by an imperial proclamation. (more info here: http://www.geocities.com/fascin8or/reiki_meiji.html ). From then on, all Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines were to be separate, and the practice of Shugendo was prohibited, with the exception of one temple complex in Yamagata prefecture, Dewa Sanzan. To the best of my knowledge, this is the only time in Japanese history when Buddhism/Shugendo was "persecuted". But this was only from 1872 until about 1945. During that time, Shugendo was still practiced outside of Dewa Sanzan, but in secret.

2.
I beleive that some of the confusion here may stem from the fact that yamabushi (aka shugenja; the people who practice shugendo) were allowed to move freely between the different fiefdoms in old Japan, while other people needed special passes. Ninja would often disguise themselves as yamabushi in order to be able to move through these different fiefdoms.

Furthermore, lots of Japanese martial arts use Buddhist/Shinto/Shugendo symbolism to communicate aspects of their art that are not easily summed up. This does NOT mean that one needs to become a Buddhist, a shugenja or a practitioner of Shinto in order to understand these concepts or to have "a full expereince". One DOES need to have a competent teacher who can explain and demonstrate the significance of these symbols and what they mean in that particular martial art. If Syrian Orthodox Christianity had been the prevelent religion in Japan when these arts were being written down, we may have had references to Archangel Michael instead of Fudo myo or St. George "slaying the Dragon" instead of "becoming zero", but the ideas that the symbols represent would have been the same.

3.
ninjajim said:
Sure, you can study under someone who has raw data on history, techniques and other specifics...A mere study which is interesting but severely lacking.
Apart from the "techniques and other specifics" what is being transmitted? The spirit of the art? Without a body of techniques to start from, all that would be transmitted would be the spirit...and what's a spirit without a body? A ghost...in otherwords "dead".
I find that some people are drawn to Asian martial arts because of the stereotype we have in the West of it's connection to spirituality. In my humble opinion, it is not the person who has a deep understanding of his art's history, techniques and "other specifics" who is "severely lacking", but the person who goes looking for spiritual guidance in an Asian martial arts school that is. I believe someone much wiser than myself once said, "If you want to get stronger, lift weights and exercise. If you want to be healthier, eat more vegetables. If you want to be more spiritual, study religion...but if you're a fool, study Budo."
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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"We will not cease from mental flight, nor shall our swords rest in our hands, 'till we have built Jerusalem in Budo's green and pleasant lands."
 

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