An appeal for other traditional ninja styles

[Don Roley]

Hello,
I am the author of the article on the Koga ryu

http://www.bujinkanwakodojo.com/bwd_kogaryu_history.html

which many people claiming to be members of the Koga ryu have denounced because they claim that I am "biased." Of course they themselves have a lot more reason for bias in trying to convince others that what they teach is not merely made up by them than I would have in denoucing them. And so far no one has even bothered to check my sources before denouncing them and have not provided sources for their counter claims.

I reject the notion that the article is biased towards destroying the Koga ryu. I think it is silly that anyone would try to claim that I am trying to discredit any other ninja tradition because I am a Bujinkan member. I would love to find another form of ninjutsu to examine it. I have spent a lot of money and time in researching ninjutsu and it's history, and finding a living source of techniques would be a great find. The problem is that every style I have met or examined turned out to trace back to someone outside of Japan who claimed he could not show any proof of the existence of his teacher because of secrecy. This secrecy does not prevent them from sometimes making a good living off of teaching students, or opening web sights, publishing books or aurguing for hours on the internet that they really are nifty keen ninja masters. No, it is only when asked for proof that they actually learned what they do from someone else instead of making it up themselves does the need for "secrecy" pop up.

If anyone can point me to a legitimate ninjutsu style outside of the Takamatsu den to have survived to the modern day, I would appreciate it. But I will not take a person's claim of being a student of a ninjutsu tradition without question. To be qualified as a legitimate ninjutsu tradtion by me I only require one thing.
Dianne Skoss wrote in an article "You want Koryu?", (http://koryu.com/library/dskoss1.html)
"admittedly, there are a very small number of schools that for political reasons fall through the cracks here, but essentially a tradition must be documentable in Japan"

This is all I require. It seems easy and logical enough. Give us proof that the art is or was taught in Japan and the person now teaching it can show a valid link to the person who is/was teaching the art in Japan. The idea of a Japanese- originated art being too secret to be known inside of Japan but taught openly outside of it, as well as being paraded out in front of the whole world via the internet, is too silly for someone who knows the reality of things to contemplate.
I do not require that you belong to any particular orginizations, nor appear in any particular book, or associate with any one person. All I require is that someone in Japan teaches or taught the art and that there is a link with that person by the person making the claim.

It is not neccesary, but it would really please me, if the person, tradition or orginization had been examined by an independent Japanese historian, martial artist scholar or other similar professional and that scholar had announced that the traditions filled all the known facts about ninjutsu and could be called a ninjutsu tradition. I can give you a few names of people I would reccomend, Nawa Yumio, Okuse Hichiro, Tobe Shinjuro, Koyama Ryutaro, Nakajima Atsumi and others who are known to have done considerable research into what the ninja were. And since it is rare when you can get academics to agree 100% on anything, I do not require that all of them agree and would be pleased if you can get even one person who is knowledgable about ninjutsu but has no link to the orginization (which might cloud their judgement) declare that it is a ninjutsu tradition.

Now, both the Togakure ryu and Fujita Seiko fill the second condition. None of the people posturing on the internet can even make the first catagory. I am hoping that someone can prove that they do indeed have a link to someone in Japan teaching the art of ninjutsu. So far, all the claimnants not only can not do so, but the ones I have come in contact with strike me as rather incompetent about the martial arts and ninjutsu in particular.

So if anyone wishes to convince me that they are indeed members of a legitimate ninjutsu syle, all I require is above. I would truely love to converse and meet with such people. However, I can point to at least three different people just off the top of my head who not only claim to teach the Koga ryu, but claim to be the 'only true' teachers of the art. Obviously, someone is not being truthfull and since none of them are acknowledged in Japan I am rather suspicious unless anyone can back up what they say.

So if you are a member of a legitimate ninjutsu style from Japan, please let me know and point me in the direction of confirming your claims for myself. I am really wanting to pick the minds of legitimate ninjutsu practicioners.

 

[Cryozombie]

You know don...

for what its worth, I read your article on the Koga Ryu... and despite your consistant fraud busting and whatnot, i Think it was a well wriiten article, and most likley accurate from the other sources I have seen...

I believe that most of the "Koga Ryu" schools are indeed made up... either in part as "semi" x-kan schools, mixed with other arts, or completely fraudulant.

Granted, who am I? No one... but...

 

[Genin Andrew]

Once again Don, Fair call.

I have commented a few times before about the quality of your essay on the Koga-Ryu,i don't see how people would find it biased when you clearly provide both sides of the story as well as historical evidence from all angles.

I also took the time to read http://koryu.com/library/dskoss1.html by Dianne Skoss.Good article and many good point where raised and explored.
Baically the legitimacy of Ninjukai lies in its "historical presence in Japan" i will do some research and find out more about the supposed "Kyoto Dojo" which once existed.I regretably say "don't count on it".

But hey out of interest sake and my interest in history i will scope around and see if i can dig up anything.If i fail i will gladly stand corrected and accept Ninjukai as a "modern" Ninja art witch has no ties to Japan...

much respect
-andrew

 

[Enson]

i too have read your article and i found it quite informative. isn't reading your article a requirement to be on this forum?

anyway... genin andrew i wouldn't stress to much about trying to meet up to don's requirements. its kinda like saying "talk to my neighbor" which he knows you won't call to japan "and then he'll let you know". just accept the fact that you are considered modern by don's standards and let it be.
what does modern mean anyway?

mod·ern Listen: [ m

d

rn ]
[font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]adj.[/size][/font]

1. a. Of or relating to recent times or the present: modern history. b. Characteristic or expressive of recent times or the present; contemporary or up-to-date: a modern lifestyle; a modern way of thinking.
2. a. Of or relating to a recently developed or advanced style, technique, or technology: modern art; modern medicine. b. Avant-garde; experimental.
3. often [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]Modern[/size][/font] Linguistics Of, relating to, or being a living language or group of languages: Modern Italian; Modern Romance languages

if that is what modern means then i would say heck yeah i'm modern. an up-to-date, advanced style! its the "law of the lid". (john c. maxwell) "if your not learning (growing) your not leading". you can only take someone were you have been. so if you are accused of having a modern way of thinking... so be it!
is rtms modern? heck yeah it is! (although i was accused by a toshindo practicioner of being more traditional then they are) do we associate with the koga ryu...? well not really. we really don't associate with any old ryu. we are modern in all ways i guess! if people don't want to close their mind to everything else... let them. they are closing themselves off from establishing friendships and lasting associations with everyone else.

peace

 

[Kreth]

The interesting thing about these would-be Koga styles, is that they seem to borrow a lot of terminology from the Bujinkan. It's interesting to see them refer to instructors as shidoshi, which is a term coined by Hatsumi sensei (and no, it is not the same word used to refer to a coach).

Jeff

 

[Genin Andrew]

Thankyou Enson, that was a good post.

The thing is i know pretty well now that i probably won't find anything on Ninjukai in Japan because many have searched before and i'm sure Don that you have had a scope around at records etc. and you live in Japan! And i trust that if you did bother that you found nothing.

But i will have an attempt just for the sake of it because it will be interesting if i do find anything and obviously it will give Don the final proof he was after and i also will be satisfied. I think their are alot of great modern arts out there and i am not afraid of being modern,but i guess i personally would like to think that i do study a "traditional" ninja art.Simply because i am a history enthusiast and love all the history side of ninjutsu,and because what i have seen and been told i believe is traditional,but like Don i would love abit of hard evidence.

A part of me does believe there is evidence out there and i also believe there is living evidence within the dojo ie. Shihan John Ang but all there is,is old unrecorded photos and his word.However having witnessed the art i still have faith.

 

[Enson]

genin andrew, i understand what you are saying. keep looking... you never know.

kreth, i absolutley agree with you. if hatsumi "coined" that term then no one else should use it. in rtms we don't use very much japanese language for anything. we believe in speaking our own language i guess. like we call kicks.... well, "kicks". from what i understood its really difficult to translate the language into english spelling anyway. i could be wrong but i think i read that somewhere, or a client told me that. we don't claim to have japanese links. in fact i can garauntee you we don't have a dojo in japan. i guess it would be hard for them to speak the english language... (thats where don comes in )
the only word we really use alot is "sensei" and sometimes we call our instructor by his first name.
peace

 

[Don Roley]

genin andrew i wouldn't stress to much about trying to meet up to don's requirements. its kinda like saying "talk to my neighbor" which he knows you won't call to japan "and then he'll let you know".

Unfortunatly I have recieved this type of attitude from the followers of Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc. I ask for proof that an art has links to Japan and they try to paint me as someone who really does not want the truth. Thus they have an excuse not to give any sort of proof.

It is a thin excuse, but they seem to use it well.

I really, really do wish to find some other form of ninjutsu that is either in Japan or started there. I may not, probably will not, study it formally. But it is nice to have something to compare and contrast. I find such interactions to be very informative as they make me take a look at my own art deeper to understand why one art does things one way and we another. I have gone to demonstrations of swordsmanship here in Japan, attended seminars on non-Japanese martial arts, etc. But I have never been able to find a legitimate ninjutsu art to compare and contrast with. The styles I have seen that claim to be ninjutsu look more like bad karate mixed with what they can steal from books by SKH and Hatsumi.

So if someone knows of a legitimate style of ninjutsu that can be traced back to Japan, please let me know.

 

[Genin Andrew]

I agree Don and i also would like to read about another style apart from the Togakure-Ryu tradition.I would love to hear a different story,see different techniques and such.I think its one of those things that a historian always dreams of...

I'm sure there was other styles,i mean there must be,how could just 1 make it to the modern age? So where are they? Maybe theres a mysterious little old Japanese man somewhere in Japan that has all the answers but just doesn't see it as appropriate to carry on the tradition...

 

[Don Roley]

Donny shihan are you really saying this.. you're the master of this yourself..

Well, I certainly have disrupted the con games of several frauds on the internet. The list of people who hate my guts and try to tear me down reads like a "who's who" of the worst in Bad Budo. I treat people like honarable people if they are honorable. But if they lie, I tend to expose them if I can.

But I really do want to find another ninjutsu style that can be found in Japan and is not a fantasy created to attract students. I think that is one reason I expose so many dishonorable people- they take away from my quest to find such groups.

Things would be so much easier if people acted honorably and did not lie about their training, their combat history, etc. I demand proof, and that really pokes holes in many liar's stories. I do demand proof that a group claiming to come from Japan can point to a Japanese source and link. If they can prove a link to Japan and are known in Japan, then I would accept them. But so far, no one seems able to do so.

 

[Don Roley]

I really never ask for proof.
With my experience I just watch.

Quite honestly, that means that you are among the most easily fooled.

Seriously. They did a study a long time ago and found that the people who beleive they were too smart/skilled to be conned were the easiest to fool.

I started out in an art that was not so great for street combat. I beleive that now, but at the time I was convinced it was the best thing since sliced bread. I beleive that the art I train in now is great, but I always remember that I used to feel the same way, only even stronger, about the other art when I was training in it.

And I ahve seen time after time people training under frauds who say, "this art is just too good to have been created out of thin air." When I see what they do, I have to stop myself from laughing out loud. The guys who follow Ashida Kim are jsut as convinced that what they do is combat effective as I. The differences are that my teachers can prove their claims of training under other people and I keep an open mind that maybe there might be flaws in what I am learning.

So that is why I demand proof for claims. Especially personal claims. A person who claims to have been taught by a Japanese teacher but can't prove it, or who claims 350+ street fights and has no legal paperwork is just not trustworthy. And only a fool would think they know so much about combat that they would know the proper response to every situation and can tell if the guy's story meets with reality.

This is why I place so much importance on arts that claim to be from Japan can show a link. It is not difficult to prove that sort of thing. It is very clear with no problems or interpetations. You either can prove it or you can not. If you make a claim that you can't prove, why the heck should I trust your further claims of being proved in combat?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Note: Thread has been 'weeded'. Please stay on topic.

 

[Don Roley]

Thank You!

 

[r.severe]

Quite honestly, that means that you are among the most easily fooled.

Donny shihan..
Because you are assuming someone is being 'fooled'...
Please give examples of yor experience with this..."being fooled" other than web sites and books..
Do you have any?

AND.... How can this be considered "honest" or not..?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Jeff Boler]

Who and what determines legitimacy? Historical lineage, or combat effectiveness? And wouldn't that be based upon opinion anyway?

You know what, all Ninjutsu styles are "modern." Even the Bujinkan has had difficulty proving it's historical legitimacy. To my knowledge, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is the only (?) Koryu system to have "Ninjutsu" in it's curriculum.

Point being, so what? Who cares if you are "modern" or "traditional". Legitimacy is a matter of opinion only. Personally, I prefer knowing that my art works when it counts, instead of whether or not it was developed hundreds of years ago. You may think differently.

Regardless, it's an arguement that is never going to be won either way.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ahem. Nevermind.

 

[Jeff Boler]

I'm not trying to upset Bujinkan members. I'm just so sick of the "Legitimacy" arguement. It's pointless, and serves no real purpose. Take some of that energy that you use trying to make yourself legitimate, and worry about making yourself effective.

It's makes a world of difference.

 

[Don Roley]

Who and what determines legitimacy?

In this case, can an art that claims to be from Japan prove that it does. That is not something that should be difficult to prove. If people are not able/willing to prove even that, then the natural assumption is that they are lying and no further thought given to them.

Once you get to Japan, the debate takes on a whole deeper aspect. But if you can't even prove that, then there is little use debating it.

And claims of combat effectiveness has to be one of the biggest cop outs. Anyone care to show me an art that does not beleive it is combat effective? Even the ones that make me laugh have hoardes of followers that think that what they are doing is effective.

It is like the Juko-kai thing. Once you find out that someone is lying, you don't trust them- especially in terms of combat effectiveness. People rarely stop with just one lie. So if we can't trust their claims of even just being of Japanese origin, why should we trust them when they say they are teaching a street effective system?

 

[Shogun]

I believe the only systems that can truly claim any type of combat effectiveness, are the systems that have experienced combat, and were created and perfected during it.
The Bujinkan arts (especially the 3 Ninjutsu schools) have obviously been through warring times, and the arts were created with "combat effectiveness" in mind.
MA's that have been used by militia/Police, etc as a primary form of unarmed combat are the only systems that can legimately claim to be effective as a whole. For instance, if someone learns BJJ and they are a cop, and they use it effectively, it doesnt mean it is an effective system, because the whole pricinct isnt using it. just the one guy. I am not sure how to word it, but basically, unless the art is combat, the practicioners cannot claim it effective during such.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

In this case, can an art that claims to be from Japan prove that it does. That is not something that should be difficult to prove. If people are not able/willing to prove even that, then the natural assumption is that they are lying and no further thought given to them.

Once you get to Japan, the debate takes on a whole deeper aspect. But if you can't even prove that, then there is little use debating it.

And claims of combat effectiveness has to be one of the biggest cop outs. Anyone care to show me an art that does not beleive it is combat effective? Even the ones that make me laugh have hoardes of followers that think that what they are doing is effective.

It is like the Juko-kai thing. Once you find out that someone is lying, you don't trust them- especially in terms of combat effectiveness. People rarely stop with just one lie. So if we can't trust their claims of even just being of Japanese origin, why should we trust them when they say they are teaching a street effective system?

The obvious reverse of that is, if ones art is NOT street effective, who cares about it's lineage? I have admired the tenacity with which you guard the sacred throne. Not one of the heresies ideally suppressed by the great apologeticists of the first few centuries of the catholic church declined because of the apologies themselves. Contrarily, many present-day practicing priests and nuns actively believe in spiritual positions considered heretical by the church.

Fools wallow in shyte. It's what they do. And pointing out to them that it IS shyte, and not the crystal spring they think it is, will rarely lower their defenses and change their minds. They will defend their dung heap as sacred ground.

There is Japanese information outside japan, some with traceable histories, some not (e.g., Japanese swordsmanship practiced among FMA guys in the Phillipines...moves are clearly Japanese, but with the racial sentiments on either side, no one cares to record or declare lineage). Unfortunately, this rare fact is used by many to abuse semi-truths, and make claims with no truth. Specifically, too many crappy karate guys out there who were good at hide-and-go-seek as kids, read Hayes' books, and used BJK names for sneaky ninja walks...granted themselves rank in Ninjutsu (usually obscure, poorly named schools that don't translate in Japanese).

Now for the big one...so what? I've met too many Kans and ex-Kans who are truly horrible martial artists to care if Hatsumi's signature is on their diploma or not. Doesn't matter to me because they are miserable to watch.

With obvious quality control issues emerging in the recent history of the art, I can't help but wonder if the strength of your mind might not be better placed towards assisting with possible solutions, as opposed to ensuring all named arts of fools aren't in the little book of names created by the census. As an aside, I suspect (my own mental meanderings, with no experience or data to support it) that -- in line with the privacy one would expect a injutsu practitioner to live with -- the census would have gone right by the houses of people professing to know nothing. Unfortunately, that possibility is the very stuff that guys like Dux & Kim thrive on, notwithstanding the likelihood that, if I'm correct, such systems would remain in, and die with, these families...certainly not be taught to a big-nosed monkey.

Guarding the throne gets tedious. I tune in to ninjutsu threads hoping to learn about some great practice exercises, some cool techniques, discussion about differences between existing organizations (sub-booj, ex-booj) and their strengths and weaknesses. Instead, it's this non-stop contest about legitimacy.

Just curious...how many loyalists from the other camps have actually ceased their activities with nefarious fellows, and switched to BJK training? How many wide-eyed 15-year-old yahoo's didn't buy a book by Kim on the Death Touch, just because you identified the guy as a clown?

Let them swim in muck. QC in the art you train in has slipped, and is slipping still. There you are, a practitioner in Japan, speaking both languages, ostensibly with the ear of the king or his viziers at your disposal. Do something to fix what matters...the quality of a noble art, rapidly descending into the land of McDojo fantasy, even among its papered practitioners and dues paying members. I mainly practice an art that's a bastard child of a bastard child, so lineage is irrelevant. But we can fight (some of us...others are also truly laughable), because we have had to. Our lineage...our right to stand up at a gathering of arts... is declared by the unconscious bodies of our opponents in the parking lot outside the convention. Meanwhile, there are earnest BJK guys still out there, still fighting, because the skills they developed weren't up to snuff.

You're a brilliant man, Don. Help where it can matter most.

My own opinion.

Hate away,

Dave