Buddhist theory of ninja origin

[Don Roley]

WOW did Mr. Roley get in a tuff... Or What... I posted fact and even then he had to try to make up a way to disprove it... Sorry but The Site I listed generates back to not only the Main School Site in Japan but If you are calling me a Lier than I would have to Think you are calling the owner of this site a lier and saying they are trying to Mislead the Students.... Young or not.. I didn't see an age for truth on this site. It is available for all students of this style and open to the public. I would think a grat man such as Soke Masaaki Hatsumi Would not allow his name and likeness to be used to fake out the public about the history of his style... I think you are just trying to BS us now to Save Face. I'm sorry I had to post it that way But I was getting slamed and asked for Proof of the history from a different site and HERE IT IS ! ! ! I didn't want to do this. I just wanted to join a forum and interact with my fellow Martial Artist. Not have to constantly defend myself and my style. You all caused that. So take your medicine and read the Proof. Again.

What a rather bizzarre post!

Mr Calkins, do you honestly think that Masaaki Hatsumi has complete knowledge of every web site run by his students? The mere thought that you would believe that a man who does not have a computer, does not speak English and is quite busy would be able to check each and every article by his students on the internet is rather beyond me. You say you posted fact, I know that is not true.

If you would merely try to put aside your need for status for a short while, maybe we could help you to understand the subject matter. But if you refuse to do so, as well as believe that a site that links to one in Japan somehow constitutes it being an official organ for Hatsumi, there is little we can do for you.

You need not defend yourself, but you do need to back up what you write with proof. And accusing me of BS is not a very productive way of debating. Please, put aside your attitude and try to interact with us with the proper respect.

Edit- thank you Sean. I wish everyone on Martialtalk could be as knowledgable, courteous and forthcoming as you.

 

[clfsean]

Yes I agree.. I have heard that version as well. It depends what area you get the story from. Some say it was an act of Sacrifice, and others have told it as when he went away to Meditate he was in the position I spoke of and the arm atrophied and froze into a raised position ...Then he cut it off. I have heard it both ways.

The arm frozen in position is BS. The Legend is the legend as it is. No changing now to fit a theory or anything like that. The psychcentral site hits probably closer to the actual truth, but like they said, the legend is how it is.

 

[BruceCalkins]

You need not defend yourself, but you do need to back up what you write with proof. And accusing me of BS is not a very productive way of debating. Please, put aside your attitude and try to interact with us with the proper respect.

This come from the man who types during the day in EST when it would be very late in Japen where he claims to be from... Training in the heart of Ninjitsu. Also a littel quote from one of his own posts..

"I can't warn you all too strongly about Don Roley. This man will go to any lenghts and do what ever it takes, including perpetration of the most massive fraud to trick people into thinking he actually lives in Japan"

These are his words typed today on a different post. and he is questioning my respect and attitude. I never claimed to be anything but what I am. Not a Student Livine in Japan training with a great master... So where in the Eastern Seaboard do you live???

 

[The Kai]

Actually never heard the arm harding story...and always thought the story of someone cutting off thier own arm to learn kung fu does'nt make a ton of sense. Kinda like putting out an eye (throwing off light perception, depth perception) to learn to paint
BTW-"I can't warn you all too strongly about Don Roley. This man will go to any lenghts and do what ever it takes, including perpetration of the most massive fraud to trick people into thinking he actually lives in Japan"


He posted this about himself!! Bruce I don't know much about Ninjitsu, but a can tell a fool-you should really stop before you get laughed off another forum


Bruce-please do not surf the net to look for articles to cut and paste, any idiot can do that!
Was'nt your 7th degree in the art you helped set up?

 

[Don Roley]

This come from the man who types during the day in EST when it would be very late in Japen where he claims to be from... Training in the heart of Ninjitsu. Also a littel quote from one of his own posts..

"I can't warn you all too strongly about Don Roley. This man will go to any lenghts and do what ever it takes, including perpetration of the most massive fraud to trick people into thinking he actually lives in Japan"

These are his words typed today on a different post. and he is questioning my respect and attitude. I never claimed to be anything but what I am. Not a Student Livine in Japan training with a great master... So where in the Eastern Seaboard do you live???

Uh, that post was by me. It was a quote of a joke by my friend Dale Seago.

I honestly can't believe that you are honestly trying to say that I do not live in Japan and am posting from the Eastern Seaboard.

Do you honestly believe that the owner of this site could not check the ISP where I was posting from- for one of his own moderators? Did you not bother to check where the quote came from? Are you really that eager to attack others?

I sit here in awe, wondering just what sort of person you are to become so eager and desperate to attack others that you would try that tactic.

And for your information, it is 10:13 on a Friday night as I type.

 

[Aegis]

I think "someone" has failed to pick up on a rather amusing joke played by Don there... *sigh*

I just wanted to join a forum and interact with my fellow Martial Artist. Not have to constantly defend myself and my style. You all caused that.

You started the claims, beginning with your user name of "SokeCalkins" (emphasis mine) and your claims of a 10th dan. Straight away you wanted everyone to know what you claim to be, and to respect you for it. Trouble is that people who are knowledgable about martial arts don't take everything at face value. Since you have so many rather questionable claims and facts, you get a hard time. Settle down here for a while, renoucne all your claims to greatness, and LEARN. You'll be surprised how much information you can pick up on fora like this by being humble...

 

[clfsean]

Nevermind...

 

[clfsean]

Actually never heard the arm harding story...and always thought the story of someone cutting off thier own arm to learn kung fu does'nt make a ton of sense. Kinda like putting out an eye (throwing off light perception, depth perception) to learn to paint

Todd... it wasn't about learning kung fu but about learning Chan Buddhism from Da Mo. Hui Ko was already older. The exercises brought to Shaolin by Da Mo were for the younger monks & people already practicing fighting at the temple. According to the legend anyway... :wink:

 

[Cryozombie]

This come from the man who types during the day in EST when it would be very late in Japen where he claims to be from... Training in the heart of Ninjitsu. Also a littel quote from one of his own posts..

"I can't warn you all too strongly about Don Roley. This man will go to any lenghts and do what ever it takes, including perpetration of the most massive fraud to trick people into thinking he actually lives in Japan"

These are his words typed today on a different post. and he is questioning my respect and attitude. I never claimed to be anything but what I am. Not a Student Livine in Japan training with a great master... So where in the Eastern Seaboard do you live???

Wow. Just wow.

Bruce... I know you rarely get your facts straight before you post... but, uh, you probably should before making posts like this, as they really really make you seem... um... less than informed.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

bruce, i think the problem is that you came here with all of these expectations that people would repect you for the title, and just say, "thanks for your info".
as soon a people started to question your credentials you felt as if your back was up against the wall, and instead of trying to learn something new, now you will stick even harder to the stories you tell.
one of the qualities of a great teacher is the ability to keep on learning, and say "i didnt know that, thank you for sharing"
no one person is perfect, or has all the knowledge on a particular course of study.
but to come in here and type, cut and paste extemporaneously and not expect to be shot down is asking to be shot down.
instead of asking someone were they may have received their knowledge, you discount it because you've already heard your version and after a long while it becomes hard to give up that version.
ive learned lots of things over the course of my life that i have found out not to be true. and while it takes some getting used to accepting new theories or the real facts, you adapt.......that is learning.
to sit back and not accept something while the evidence stares you down indicates a refusal to invite new ideas or new knowledge.......struggle is the law of growth.
you'r struggling right now to gain acceptance by a group of your peers. denial of this would only further strengthen my argument.
why else would one come back time and again with information, whether it be right or wrong.

 

[Floating Egg]

Phil's Field Guide to Trolls, Version 4.10

 

[clfsean]

Good call on Phil's Guides. Always good reading & well put together.

 

[shesulsa]

This come from the man who types during the day in EST when it would be very late in Japen where he claims to be from... Training in the heart of Ninjitsu. Also a littel quote from one of his own posts..

"I can't warn you all too strongly about Don Roley. This man will go to any lenghts and do what ever it takes, including perpetration of the most massive fraud to trick people into thinking he actually lives in Japan"

These are his words typed today on a different post. and he is questioning my respect and attitude. I never claimed to be anything but what I am. Not a Student Livine in Japan training with a great master... So where in the Eastern Seaboard do you live???

*Shaking head in disbelief* Man oh man. I would use the analogy of pot and kettle but ... one of them is absent in this particular instance. We've had people doubt Mr. Roley's residence before ... let's see if I can dredge that up ... for your edification, that is.

I must say for someone with doubtful credentials at best to attempt to discredit the real deal is ... um ... well, surely it's eye-opening to even the most lenient (and I'm probably one of those).

 

[BruceCalkins]

I never started cutting and pasting until the information I typed was asked for proof. So I found the Proof and cut and pasted the same information that has been avalable on my web site for years. That it was cut and pasted from several sites that said the same thing was what was needed to let some people know.. I was not making it up. This is what I learned and as I say History is different from different points of view.
I came here to share and meet now Martial Artist. I never attacked anyone. and I do not judge others my title of ideals. I Look at everyone evenly and look to share. If someone came on here with the title of Master..Soke..Kyoshi..or Mr.. That is up to them not me. I do not judge them for it. or question their ability just by a title or anything. I have said several times.. The Highest rank I earned in 37 years is 7th degree. I have never claimed higher. I only took the 10th rank to avoid confusion... "If you have a system you created... and the highest rank is 10th degree...... If you are only 7th degree..... What do I do when I want to advance to 8th degree in 10-20 years???" This is why I was given the top rank Oked by my students and local peers. Also through a Sokeship council that tested me and judged my ability and other councils...
I am not a pretentous man.. I ask for nothing from people and rarely charge students. I am doing this because I love it and have devoted my life to it. more that 30% of my students train for free because they are "At-Risk Kids" or from Low Income Families and could not afford training any other way. We are very proud of what we do and I feel that we have a strong defensive school and system. We took 6 of our students a few months ago to their first touriment in Niagara Falls and all 6 won. 2, 3, & 4th Places all. I don't usually like compitition I stopped myself over 15 years ago but It gives the students a new expereince.

 

[saru1968]

I have seen the post referring to Don by Dale and it is clear that it is indeed a joke and to paste to infur otherwise shows a sheer lack of character which i might add is not in place with my view of a Soke.

please play games elsewhere.

Gary

 

[The Kai]

Highest rank I earned in 37 years is 7th degree.

In an art you helped "set-up" correct

  I have never claimed higher. I only took the 10th rank to avoid confusion... "If you have a system you created... and the highest rank is 10th degree...... If you are only 7th degree.....

??? Why worry about it

What do I do when I want to advance to 8th degree in 10-20 years???"

Find someone who could train you perhaps

This is why I was given the top rank Oked by my students and local peers. Also through a Sokeship council that tested me and judged my ability and other councils...

Ranked by your own students was this the esteemed eagle federation, great

I am not a pretentous man.. I ask for nothing from people and rarely charge students. I am doing this because I love it and have devoted my life to it. more that 30% of my students train for free because they are "At-Risk Kids" or from Low Income Families and could not afford training any other way.

Greedy and pretencious are two different things

We are very proud of what we do and I feel that we have a strong defensive school and system. We took 6 of our students a few months ago to their first touriment in Niagara Falls and all 6 won. 2, 3, & 4th Places all. I don't usually like compitition I stopped myself over 15 years ago but It gives the students a new expereince.

I'm interested, what was your competetive record

 

[BruceCalkins]

Highest rank I earned in 37 years is 7th degree.

In an art you helped "set-up" correct

Yami-Umi-Do was taught long before I joined and the Tsunami-Ryu was nothing more than a Name change by the New Head Instructor after the founder Passed. I was an instructor and helped run the system that was all.

 I have never claimed higher. I only took the 10th rank to avoid confusion... "If you have a system you created... and the highest rank is 10th degree...... If you are only 7th degree.....

??? Why worry about it

What do I do when I want to advance to 8th degree in 10-20 years???"

Find someone who could train you perhaps
What good would finding someone of a High rank in a different system to teach the system I am in... Trining with someone else would not help me rank someone in my system higher.

This is why I was given the top rank Oked by my students and local peers. Also through a Sokeship council that tested me and judged my ability and other councils...

Ranked by your own students was this the esteemed eagle federation, great

No I sead by my students and peers. Meaning Other Martial Arts instructors I delt with in my area.

I am not a pretentous man.. I ask for nothing from people and rarely charge students. I am doing this because I love it and have devoted my life to it. more that 30% of my students train for free because they are "At-Risk Kids" or from Low Income Families and could not afford training any other way.

Greedy and pretencious are two different things

Greedy... Lets See... I teach 30% for free...... and Only Charge $55.00 a Month for over 24 hours.. Thats 6 hours + a Week... If That sounds Greedy.... Well...

We are very proud of what we do and I feel that we have a strong defensive school and system. We took 6 of our students a few months ago to their first touriment in Niagara Falls and all 6 won. 2, 3, & 4th Places all. I don't usually like compitition I stopped myself over 15 years ago but It gives the students a new expereince.

I'm interested, what was your competetive record

It Wasnt That great.. I have never been to great a Point fighter. I have worked on it.. But I didn't like the Politics in Point fighting. So I stopped going. I did a bit with different Schools I was with.. Didn't like it much and like I said.. I was never the top one in our schools. I did my best and took a few 2nd & 3rd... But that was it.

 

[chinto01]

I came here to share and meet now Martial Artist. I never attacked anyone. and I do not judge others my title of ideals. I Look at everyone evenly and look to share. If someone came on here with the title of Master..Soke..Kyoshi..or Mr.. That is up to them not me. I do not judge them for it. or question their ability just by a title or anything. I have said several times.. The Highest rank I earned in 37 years is 7th degree. I have never claimed higher. I only took the 10th rank to avoid confusion... "If you have a system you created... and the highest rank is 10th degree...... If you are only 7th degree..... What do I do when I want to advance to 8th degree in 10-20 years???" This is why I was given the top rank Oked by my students and local peers. Also through a Sokeship council that tested me and judged my ability and other councils...
I am not a pretentous man.. I ask for nothing from people and rarely charge students. I am doing this because I love it and have devoted my life to it. more that 30% of my students train for free because they are "At-Risk Kids" or from Low Income Families and could not afford training any other way. We are very proud of what we do and I feel that we have a strong defensive school and system. We took 6 of our students a few months ago to their first touriment in Niagara Falls and all 6 won. 2, 3, & 4th Places all. I don't usually like compitition I stopped myself over 15 years ago but It gives the students a new expereince.

Mr.Calkins once again your posts make me wonder. Just as one question seems to be answered another presents itself. I believe you are brining alot of this continued critisisim upon yourself by some of your posts. You keep bringing up yur promotions and why they were done the way they were. I think we get the idea. Your rank is recognized by an american council who did not even meet face to face with you. This amazes me. How do they know what kind of character training you have had. How do they know what kind of person you are? Anyone can look good on paper and a video tape can be altered over and over again. Not saying you did this but it is a possibility. As I have stated in past posts I do not agree with your self-promotion or your american appointed titles but I cannot change that. You say that you teach At-Risk Kids with low income families. Are you charging for your lessons or are you donating your time? I believe you know where I am going with this. If you are charging these low income families for your own style of martial arts I would be ashamed of myself. Please tell me you are donating your time to these kids. I would also like to encourage you not to judge the effectiveness of your system based on tournament results. Tournaments are nothing but a controlled game of tag. This gets more and more disturbing by the post!

 

[The Kai]

Greedy... Lets See... I teach 30% for free...... and Only Charge $55.00 a Month for over 24 hours.. Thats 6 hours + a Week... If That sounds Greedy.... Well...

I was trying to make a point taht would ever you donate it comes with the stipulation that "Your students" call you Soke--That's pretentious, but not necessarally greedy (in a finacial sense)

I'm sorry in one of your earlier posts you mentioned how you helped set up the art
I don't think you should find someone higher ranked then you for the ranking, but someone to train you, teach you

I think any fool can see what the eagle fed is all about. Nuff' said. (in fact at one time I was listed on the site-when I found out I asked to have my name removed)

 

[47MartialMan]

There is also scrolls telling of a Monk that sat in a cave in Meditation holding his arm up until it hardened from this position and he could not put it down. Then he had it Cut Off and This is Why the Monks will Bow With 1 hand in Prayer Position. Lots of History.

No no No...the one-hand that Buddhist use is called mudras.

The cut off arm you speak of is a legend about Bodhidharma's pupil, Hui Ko, whom cut off his arm to show dedication/loyalty. thus thus legend has been past from geberation to geberation. Back then, story telling via a raci=onteur was entertainment. Actual writings, to which you refer to as scrolls, have many metaphors that have poetic meaning and should not be viewd as whole.

For example, it was written that Bodhidharma crossed the river on a leaf.

However, given that some ferry boats back then were leaf-shaped, there is a poetic affiation to it.

If you want to know more about Buddihism, study/research on Buddhism. I was fortunate to have a college professor whose subject/courses were on Eastern Religion. His speciality was Buddhism. He did travel to India and Asia.
He had also made it possible for me to meet and speak with Buddhist Monks.

Thus, data from those sources had made me re-think, both angles, on current "Shaolin Monks/Kung Fu as being "real or authentic"