Buddhist theory of ninja origin

[Mountain Kusa]

Oh Man!!

I have just spent the last 30 or so minutes sorting through all these posts. Those who know me well, know I am a hunter, and as such there are certain rules about camp.

1. Dont discuss religion and politics.

2. When and if, (mostly when ) Alcohol comes out, the guns are locked away.

This seems to be whats happening here.

Okay, now for my point, Jim,........One does not have to train in mykkyo to understand this art. They can have a religion or have no religion and it will make no difference to their understanding of this art. I have it under very good authority from a friend of Dons (LM) "There is no such thing as ninja/mikkyo/ninpo mikkyo."

Everything that Don has said to you is true. The training is very different than it was even when I started training in '93. If you will let go of trying to weave ninpo and religion together, you will find yourself blossoming into the art. Just focus on taijutsu.

As for your concern about the politics, it is part of the process like it or not. It keeps you aware. Mostly, respect and focusing on your own training will alleviate any need to become involved in the "bad" side of politics. I would suggest for you to resume training if you are not already, learn, listen, and help others along the way when you can. In the end, it is the good we have left behind that will make all the difference.:asian:

 

[Dale Seago]

I don't know if it really is a case of the art evolving. I think it is more that we are getting more and more correct information from Japan and a tighter bond with Hatsumi. I was around in the early days on the sideline. I remember Hayes selling his own brand of straight bokken because that is what ninja were supposed to have used, people talking about wind stances, people making the weirdest speculations on history based on very little actual facts, articles in Ninja Realm that taught people to shoot using IPSC sport styles, etc.

But of course, some people liked the old days with its different image than we now hear coming out of Japan. The first stories I heard about the ninja were fairly romantic. The more and more I hear of reality, the more realistic (i.e.- less exciting) everything seems to be. It is still exciting to me, it just seems less like a star wars movie in the possibilies that we could fill in the blanks with our imagination.

I've been training steadily since the end of '83 and go to Japan regularly; and I totally agree with what Don says here.

 

[ninjaJim]

Ninjajim, I am taking the "whole package" to mean the spiritual,mystical and mental abilities to be included in training. Are you asking for a guarantee? "if I start now will it be there when I am of the ability to understand"? That doesn't really seem like a sensible attitude, no offence intended, but what is it you want to be capable of? Or are you just interested in religion so you can be happy and or go to heaven?

Also, I don't think that because there are more students it is harder for a "true seeker", you might have to sift through a few more teachers but then there are a lot more good ones around too. Anyway, if you imagine you are "entitled" to the "true" teachings of Hatsumi sensei and want them direct from the horses mouth then get in line, put in the 10-20-30 years or so and maybe if he is still around you might get them. More likely though your views after 10 years training or so will have changed so much that you will not consider these things as being very important, at least not in the way you do now.

I agree with you TOTALY. Nobody is entitled to SQUAT except those who are in favor. Years ago it was implied that such training could have been had here in the states. Now that I'm older and able to see things more clearly reality strikes. (I'll leave it at that) Yes, it is best to go straight to the source but even back then things were becoming increasingly restricted.

My views have changed but here is still the kid inside who misses the experiences. It's kind of like getting a hint that the "Matrix" is real and then being tormented about proving it. (A contemporary analogy)

I can see that you and I think very much alike.

Jim

 

[ninjaJim]

I've been training steadily since the end of '83 and go to Japan regularly; and I totally agree with what Don says here.

I had similar realizations. Most of us who were sold the image realized later how much it deviated from reality.

Wonder what we'll see in another twenty years hindsight.

 

[Shinkengata]

Wonder what we'll see in another twenty years hindsight.

I don't know. I dunno if i will still even be in the Bujinkan in 20 years, or even studying martial arts for that matter. I may die in the next 20 years, who knows.

I just try to view all things as readily possible. That way it will be much easier for me to adapt to changes in my life. I made a decision to move 2,200 miles away to California a month ago, and i will move there in less than 2 weeks. Change can happen fast, even if we choose a change like i did.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Jim,

If you will look back through the posts, you will see that everyone here is attempting to lead you to the light and help you to understand. You can be shown the light, but its up to you to walk in it. There is no conspiracy, there is no ultra secret technique which the chosen few are getting and the bottom feeders are not. I have seen way too many people get hung up on supposed secrets and it kills them. In reality, good training over time, with the right people, and a good heart will get you there. But then you will learn that there is no there, and you will have grown enough to be comfortable with that, and just train and enjoy the path. Good luck.

 

[Kizaru]

.... You can be shown the light, but its up to you to walk in it. There is no conspiracy, there is no ultra secret technique which the chosen few are getting and the bottom feeders are not. I have seen way too many people get hung up on supposed secrets and it kills them. ... Good luck.

That's probably one of the best posts I've ever read here. I snipped it, but I agree with every line in there.

Gassho.

 

[Satt]

That's probably one of the best posts I've ever read here. I snipped it, but I agree with every line in there.

Gassho.

That's why we love em'. He is a pillar of wisdom. :mst:

 

[Don Roley]

My views have changed but here is still the kid inside who misses the experiences. It's kind of like getting a hint that the "Matrix" is real and then being tormented about proving it. (A contemporary analogy)

I know exactly how you feel. I remember how the art was sold in the early 80s. Hatsumi was as distant, mysterious figure and anyone who could survive the deadly fifth dan test must have been a mystical, complete person.

I have stood in many temples in Japan, and they are cool. I mean, really cool. The stories of remote viewing and such were so prelevent that the mind boggled with the idea of human potential beyond what we thought.

Well, in a few hours I leave for tonights class. Now I know I will not be learning how to see the thoughts of others, or become a warrior monk. But I will learn good skills that I am well satisfied with learning.

But damn, when we knew so little and filled in the gaps with our imagination is was such a good image that we could build up.

 

[Shinkengata]

Jim,

If you will look back through the posts, you will see that everyone here is attempting to lead you to the light and help you to understand. You can be shown the light, but its up to you to walk in it. There is no conspiracy, there is no ultra secret technique which the chosen few are getting and the bottom feeders are not. I have seen way too many people get hung up on supposed secrets and it kills them. In reality, good training over time, with the right people, and a good heart will get you there. But then you will learn that there is no there, and you will have grown enough to be comfortable with that, and just train and enjoy the path. Good luck.

And let us not forget to not devote our lives to the teachings, but devote the teachings to our lives.

Don't live to train, train to live. That's the best advice i can offer anyone at this most basic stage in my training.

 

[Shogun]

Because I started training only threee years ago in Bujinkan, I never was at the point you guys were with all the mysticism and what not. I guess I am lucky in that aspect, though. however, in the beginning I had two misconceptions:
1. all Ninjutsu is the same (ie. tew ryu, duncan ryu, koga ryu, etc)
2. Taijutsu is just tight-kido (aikido, delivered closer to the body)

"I can see clearly now the rain is gone"

 

[Don Roley]

I guess I am lucky in that aspect, though. however, in the beginning I had two misconceptions:
1. all Ninjutsu is the same (ie. tew ryu, duncan ryu, koga ryu, etc)

Some of us have been trying to help dispell that distortion by you and others. But we get called various names for not being positive and looking the other way when people rip off students using the ninjutsu name.

 

[Shogun]

I didnt distort anything. thats just what I thought when I first started training because I was a newbie and didnt know better. I do now. I am glad you guys are jerks. otherwise I would be doing Tew ryu playhouse-jutsu. lol.

 

[heretic888]

In Japan, prior to 1872 Buddhism and Shinto were often combined, and in some cases, this was refered to as "Shugen" (more information here: http://members.shaw.ca/shugendo/intro.html).

I think I should also point out that the "merging" of Shinto and Buddhist elements was especially common among the Tantric sects in question. The Shingon-shu referred to such systems as Ryobu Shinto.

There was actually a whole metaphysical and philosophical framework for doing so; it wasn't a simple 'take-what-you-like, discard-what-you-don't' approach. Very interesting

From http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shinto.shtml

Ryobu Shinto means dual Shinto. This is a term used to refer generally to Shinto as syncretized with Buddhism, and specifically to that syncretic Shinto as interpreted by Shingon Buddhism (see Shingon Shinto below), in contrast to Tendai Shinto. If the shrine has a plaque on it's gate, it is Ryobu Shinto, which means Shinto influenced by Buddhism. Because Buddhism and Shinto have coexisted in Japan for hundreds of years, they have had strong influences on each another, even lending each other gods, and altering the way each is practiced.

Shingon Shinto
Also called Ryobu Shinto, an interpretation of Shinto according to the doctrines of the Shingon sect of Buddhism. In the esoteric Shingon sect, the unity of the metaphysical world with the phenomenal and natural world is explained via the dualistic principles of the Kongokai (vajradhatu or diamond world) and Taizokai (garbhadhatu or womb world). See Ryokai Mandala for many more details. According to this interpretation, the relative is equivalent to the absolute and phenomenon is equivalent to noumenon. This principle was extended to assert that the native Japanese deities are equivalent to the Buddhist deities; for example, Amaterasu Omikami is viewed as equivalent to Dainichi Nyorai (Mahavairocana). This school of thought was said to have been initiated by Kukai (773-835), the founder of the Shingon sect in Japan, but it is in fact a later development. Kukai was, however, a strong believer in Shinto deities, and established the shrine Nibutsuhime Jinja as the tutelary deity of Koyasan, the mountain monastery which he founded. Other terms for the blending of Shinto with Buddhism are honji suijaku and shinbutsu shugo.

Theory of original reality and manifested traces. A theory of Shinto-Buddhist syncretism. Originally a Buddhist term used to explain the Buddha's nature as a metaphysical being (honji) and the historical figure Sakyamuni (suijaku). This theory was used in Japan to explain the relation between Shinto gods and Buddhas; the Buddhas were regarded as the honji, and the Shinto gods as their incarnations or suijaku. Theoretically, honji and suijaku are an indivisible unity and there is no question of valuing one more highly than the other; but in the early Nara period, the honji was regarded as more important than the suijaku. Gradually they both came to be regarded as one; but in the Kamakura period, Shintoists also proposed the opposite theory, that the Shinto gods were the honji and the Buddhas the suijaku. This theory was called han-honji-suijaku setsu or shinpon-butsuju setsu.

Meaning: Avatar, or Shinto Kami as Manifestations of Buddhist Deities

More on Honjisuijaku
Ancient Shinto did not bother to erect shrines until the 3rd and 4th century. Not until the country was unified under the Yamato in the 4th century did Shinto begin to acquire a clear hierarchical structure with the Yamato gods and high-priest emperor at top and local gods at bottom. The first known Japanese histories were efforts to legitimize the imperial line by merging myths and legends concerning local ujigami with the Yamato mythology. No Shinto doctrine as such, however, was postulated until the mid-Heian HONJISUIJAKU doctrine stipulating that Shinto gods were really manifestations of Buddhist deities, thereby linking indigenous beliefs to Buddhist teachings.

In feudal and early-modern periods, a number of sects emerged professing an independent and pure Shintoism, including Ise, Yoshida, and Fukko Shinto. But in Meiji period, the government makes determined efforts to promote emperor worship and all the trappings of Shinto, so local shrine teachings and festivals were brought into line with the national doctrine, and local priests lost the authority to do much except conduct ceremonies.

Shinbutsu Shugo
The harmonization of Shinto, the native Japanese religion, with Buddhism, which came from India via China. According to Buddhist doctrine, a person who has done good may become a deva after death, living in heaven, encouraging humans to do good, and acting as a protector of Buddhism. When Buddhism was introduced to Japan around 538 or so, the word deva was translated not only as the Japanese ten, but also as kami, in order to facilitate the propagation of the new religion among the common people. This process of syncretization became particularly conspicuous during the Nara period. Before constructing the Big Buddha at the Todaiji in Nara (741), Emperor Shomu first commanded the priest Gyoki to report the plan to the goddess at Ise no Jingu and to make an offering of relics of the Buddha; Buddhist scriptures were also offered to the Usa Hachiman Shrine. Syncretic practices such as building shrines on temple grounds and pagodas in shrine precincts, and of reading Buddhist scriptures before Shinto deities or presenting them to shrines, all continued until the two religions were forcibly separated in the early Meiji period (see shinbutsu bunri below). The theory of honji suijaku was developed during the Heian period to explain this relationship and propagated through such movements as Shingon Shinto and Tendai Shinto. Shinto develops close ties with Shingon and Tendai Buddhism during the Heian period.

 

[Shogun]

Merging shinto with Buddhism wasnt, and isnt, all that uncommon. both are open religions to a degree, and from what I ahve heard from my Shinto preist, a lot of japanese use shinto as an outline for life, and deal with buddhism for death.

 

[Bigshadow]

I'm greatly troubled by the fact that there is something out there that I'd like to have but probably can't. Even back in "the day" there were a lot of hoops to jump through but now...

It is there for taking. You get out of it what you put into it. Find a good teacher and learn. Go to Japan for yourself and learn from the source. I don't think there are hoops, just personal obstacles.

If it is your passion, seek it out. That is part of the training.

I hope that I didn't misinterpret the quote. If so I am sorry.

Keep going,
David

 

[Bigshadow]

What I am trying to say is that there is so much more to this art than just the physical techniques. It would be a shame to train and not get the entire package.

On a related note, I once asked a shihan if I should meditate or something extra outside the dojo to acquire that "6th sense" ability. He told me... 'Nope! Just train! It will happen naturally.'

I think it is there, 2 years or so (how long you trained?), may not be long enough to get that ability, but that varies from person to person. If you are looking for "magic", then you might want to talk to a magician. I think that everything that appears to be magical about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, is just natural ability that we have lost through social and environmental engineering, nothing magic about it.

 

[Bigshadow]

Some of us have been trying to help dispell that distortion by you and others. But we get called various names for not being positive and looking the other way when people rip off students using the ninjutsu name.

I think you meant "Some of us have been trying to help dispell that distortion for you and others." No?