Buddhist theory of ninja origin

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ninjaJim

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Hello All,



This should be an interesting post... It's my first! "NinjaJim" was a nickname they gave me in high school. Seemed fitting to use it as a sign in. Hopefully this post will shed light on what Traditional Ninjustsu is... or might be. Apologies in advance for the long post.



Since the early '80's I wanted to learn ninjutsu. I bought all of the Stephen K Hayes books and after digesting them went on to train under one of SKH's students, Mark Russo. During my tutelage I got to meet and train with Steve and Bud M on a few occasions. The training was excellent and helped me become the man I am today. In hindsight there are no regrets and I'm very grateful to have evolved as I did. After three and a half years I was 6th kyu. This was when I left, after having fully realized the politics, business and exoteric/esoteric nature of the art purported to be Ninjutsu.



Here is my explanation of the realization I had and why something this harsh would be said... (Followed by an explanation of esoteric and exoteric differences :)



Probably the most important thing to understand is that instructors are like the rest of us... they need money to survive. To do this they need to market their product first which means that the product is subject to change. This "product change" is what I have witnessed over the years and although change is good it can also be bad.



What should concern us more is why people pursue the product known as Ninjutsu. There are few who understand what it is really about and fewer who initiate their path for the reason the art was intended for. Perhaps by learning what brought the subversive practices about in days of old one would clearly understand what it meant to be a ninja.



The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic. You see, there were/are different teachings for different people who seek enlightenment. There are general teachings for the masses and specialized teachings for a selected few. The problem is that the commoners gained access to the "good stuff". A modern equivalent would be a group in America owning a munitions depot with the latest fighter jets, tanks, etc... That would make any government nervous right?? Well the feudal lords couldn't stand the potential threat and were driven to erase the teachings and those that knew them... Enter the Ninja!!!! (God I love using a cheesy Hollywood title like this) In a very short time the monks and disciples had to get some control of their situation. Desperate times call for desperate measures and innovative approaches to overwhelming problems... Problems like, "Hey Joe we have 10,000 Heike troops coming to level the village. What do we do?"



The rest is history.



What we have today is a society where enlightenment is pursuable without fear of death. There is no need to don night vision and IR invisible khakis or to even think about physically defending our pursuits. In short, there is not a need to train as ninja did in the past. Perhaps the only good reason to train is if the movements should assist in the elevation of one's consciousness.



The final and most important point is about esoteric and exoteric teachings. Put simply only a handful of a group of students are taught the special teachings. This is to say that one must make one hell of an impression on one's instructor before that person chooses to share the special knowledge. (All this is assuming that the instructor has anything special to disseminate) Look around your training group and you can probably see the "favorites". Look further into that small group and you'll see the chosen few. Look at what the few are attaining and decide if this is the path you want to walk.



Knowing this may save you a lot of effort in your pursuit.



Could write lots more but will see where this goes.





Jim

PS: Could you imagine what the training curriculum and tests would be like if pursuit of certain teachings was punishable by death in this day and age??!!
 

Don Roley

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ninjaJim said:
The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic.


No, no and no!!!!

I am sorry. I want to welcome you to martialtalk and hope that you have a good experience here. But the premis upon all of what you beleive the ninja to be is false.

Trust me on this. Ask others here about what they think my knowledge level of ninjutsu history is at. People say I am arrogent and act like I know more than others. At the same time, they tend to admit that in terms of history I do know more than 99 percent of the people out there.

Honestly, it is not the fact that you have a mistaken idea of what the ninja came from that disturbs me. It is the way that you state it as fact that I see as causing trouble. I do not want trouble here. I have to clean up the messes. If you really, really do not know something, could you please state it with less of a voice of authority? It would make things go so much easier around here.
 
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ninjaJim

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Hi Don,

I respectfully submit to any version of history which is provable and that you might have. I'm 36 now and have had a lot of time to retrospectively study issues I could barely grasp when I was 19. It's interesting what hindsight and introspection can reveal.

From what I've read about Buddhism's history in Japan and it's affect on politics it seems that this is exactly the recipe which created the ninja. Stephen Hayes books mentioned this type of thing a bit but after cross verifying it with other accounts it seems to be the case. I'm not saying that Ninjutsu was invented spontaneously the day that troops started destroying people and places but it was al in the works. Ask a Shingon teacher about the history of those who were forced to survive in these times.

Every school of the teachings has had to fight for it's survival at one point or another. It doesn't matter if they live in China, Japan or Tibet.

This may sound silly but there was and is a magical side of Buddhism. Stuff that really works! The masses will never know because they aren't supposed to.

Jim
 

Don Roley

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ninjaJim said:
I respectfully submit to any version of history which is provable and that you might have.

Then I suggest you start with an article I wrote about the history of the Koga ryu.

http://www.bujinkanwakodojo.com/bwd_kogaryu_history.html

You may note that I do not mention conflicts surrounding different doctrines of Buddhism as being a cause of the birth of ninjutsu. You may also note the sources I used at the bottom of the page. I will put those sources up against any you may have access to.
 
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ninjaJim

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Very nice site!

I've read similar stories in Steves books. The basic theme is the same. Japan, like China was a wild place with constant power struggles. Heck, even during WWII when the Japanese were in China the Chinese were still fighting each other!

Buddhism's esoteric teachings were a factor in leaders decisions.

Shingon: Japanese Esoteric Buddhism by
Taiko Yamasaki

People of the era needed to know how to fight and play dirty whether they had the upper hand or not. There is no debating that. Look at Buddhism's effect on the equation though. It's interesting when the story is told from a different side.

People have been involved in espionage and various types of warfare since the dawn of time. The reasons that they fought for are what matters more than what they did. ( As long as they won. First place winners got to live to tell about it.)

Cya tomorrow. I'm turning in.

Jim

 

Shizen Shigoku

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Wait, wait wait!


Let me get this straight:

The historic ninja on which traditional ninjutsu is based were not a product of mountain mystics under siege of . . . um, who were they again - some samurai, certainly - that learned magical martial arts from tengu?!

A progressive, complex evolution of specialized battle tactics developed over centuries? Impossible!

:D
[/sarcasm]
 

Don Roley

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ninjaJim said:
People of the era needed to know how to fight and play dirty whether they had the upper hand or not. There is no debating that. Look at Buddhism's effect on the equation though. It's interesting when the story is told from a different side.

Exactly how?

Trust me, I have done quite a bit of research on the matter. Japan is a Buddhist country so it is always in the background. But your central point that somehow the ninja evolved out of a suppressed minority of Buddhists just does not hold water.

Again, exactly how? Not generalities, precise facts backed up by verifiable sources.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Oh, and Jim? If you're the guy in your avatar - do something about the positioning of that rear leg (or tell whomever it may be to do so). Otherwise someone's going to get hurt.
 

Mickey Mullins

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Hello Jim,

You wrote:
The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic. You see, there were/are different teachings for different people who seek enlightenment. There are general teachings for the masses and specialized teachings for a selected few. The problem is that the commoners gained access to the "good stuff". A modern equivalent would be a group in America owning a munitions depot with the latest fighter jets, tanks, etc... That would make any government nervous right?? Well the feudal lords couldn't stand the potential threat and were driven to erase the teachings and those that knew them... Enter the Ninja!!!! (God I love using a cheesy Hollywood title like this) In a very short time the monks and disciples had to get some control of their situation. Desperate times call for desperate measures and innovative approaches to overwhelming problems... Problems like, "Hey Joe we have 10,000 Heike troops coming to level the village. What do we do?"
Alot of the history(as well as techniques) in Mr.Hayes"early"books were incorrect(no big deal...as he hadn't trained all that long when they were wrote).

Later you wrote:
From what I've read about Buddhism's history in Japan and it's affect on politics it seems that this is exactly the recipe which created the ninja. Stephen Hayes books mentioned this type of thing a bit but after cross verifying it with other accounts it seems to be the case. I'm not saying that Ninjutsu was invented spontaneously the day that troops started destroying people and places but it was al in the works. Ask a Shingon teacher about the history of those who were forced to survive in these times.

Every school of the teachings has had to fight for it's survival at one point or another. It doesn't matter if they live in China, Japan or Tibet.

This may sound silly but there was and is a magical side of Buddhism. Stuff that really works! The masses will never know because they aren't supposed to.
I believe your'e putting the cart before the horse...so to speak?Ninjutsu came before Buddhism,not vise versa ;).

Soooo....while they're probably were some Buddhist ninja,it is definately not a case of ninja Buddhists.If you'd like to read some more about the history of ninjutsu(besides Dons wonderful masterpiece.)buy Soke Masaaki Hatsumi's latest book.(The Way of the Ninja:Secret Techniques)

BTW,the "masses" aren't supposed to know any of this,LOL.

Mickey Mullins

(oh and Don I have no athority on any subject well other than maybe Fossil fuel extraction,just clarification for everyone)
 

Kizaru

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ninjaJim said:
The basic story of the ninja revolves around Buddhist "magic" and the need for leaders to control who possessed this magic.


That statement could potentially be offensive to someone who is a Buddhist.

ninjaJim said:
You see, there were/are different teachings for different people who seek enlightenment. There are general teachings for the masses and specialized teachings for a selected few.

And how is this any different from Christianity, Islam or a major University?
 

Kizaru

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ninjaJim said:
From what I've read about Buddhism's history in Japan and it's affect on politics it seems that this is exactly the recipe which created the ninja.
Christianity, being the dominant religion in the West, has had an influence on politics in the United States of America. With the same logic you've stated above, one could say that Christianity's effect on American politics was exactly the recipe which created the CIA.

ninjaJim said:
This may sound silly but there was and is a magical side of Buddhism.
This may sound silly, but there was and is a magical side of LIFE.
 
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ninjaJim

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I wrote a synopsis and not a detailed explanation. Sorry.
It was not intended to come across as "Thank God Buddhism stepped in and created this great art of Ninjustsu"! It's interesting to note that none of the other points have come up for discussion. What's your take on my opinion of todays situation?


Here's what I'm saying and have said. (Without using so many words) Man has had politics and warfare since the beginning. There is no doubting this. The skills which make up ninjutsu as we study it today have a history which predates buddhism. (This went without saying)

There is a moment in time when any phenomena has it's peak. There is a moment in time when a country or a religeon shines as no other. Just as WWII brought great change to our nation so did Buddhism's effect on many nations standard of living and understanding of their world.

This point I'm talking about is when relatively savage people discovered a flower amidst their chaos. The effect this discovery had and the meaning which it added to "the cause" which made them do what they did is what a modern practitioner of Ninjutsu should emulate.

Anyone can be a dumb oaf with loads of weapons, abilities, knowlege and strength. If there is nothing behind his actions good is he then??? Where is his salvation and happiness in this world? He is simply a paranoid fool who is playing king of an imaginary hill.

Here is my argument... When we think of ninja are we thinking simply of a well trained technician capable of doing dirty work? I would hope we would be thinking of a technician with an interest in bettering the world through silent means. A techincian who respects life and loves all yet who is capable of reflecting others evil upon them. Ideally a study of traditional Ninjustsu would incorporate a guidance system.

There was a golden age of the art... a time when it was at it's best. The time I'm speaking about would be the time during the realization of Buddhism's benefits to humanity. As far as we should be concerned these are the only "real" ninja to emulate and study. (And yes I know I just opened another can of Spam against this post) LOL


What personal gain can you expect to have if you simply study the movements, history or scrolls. Not a lot. The real prize comes when you have all of these things and a personal understanding of why they are so important. For a warrior added dimension of spirituality and philosophy should be considered essential.

Jim

PS. The picture (avatar) was taken when I was 16. This was before any real training. I began training at 18.
 

Cryozombie

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Jim, welcome to the forums.

Nim, Quit picking on Jim. Photos are often "wrong"... you cant judge technique based on a photo, unless you know the specific context of the photo. He could have been "in transition" into (or out of) Ichimonji there, or any number of other factors...

I could show you pics of me in HORRIBLE Kame, but its because my photographer was posing me for effect, not to make them look like perfect technique... You just never know. (Granted, my Taijutsu is often bad anyhow... but what do you want, I'm no master)
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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There is a post somewhere around here by "some drunk in Japan" about Toshiro Mifune's character in the movie "Yojimbo" and how that relates to what I too believe to be the most reasonable description of the historical bushi of Japan. Look around for it.

Oh, and guess what? Ninjutsu is not synonymous with taijutsu and/or bukiwaza.:asian:
 

Cryozombie

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Not to go off topic but Yojimbo and Sanjuro were two of my all time favorite Samurai flicks, and Id kill for one of those awesome Japanese Toshiro Mifune Yojimbo dolls. I can't spend 200 bucks on one tho.

:(

m1.jpg
 

Kizaru

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Shogun said:
Although I only have about 2 years into BBT, I have about 4 into Jinja Shinto and can identify the shinto in taijutsu. it is definelty NOT Buddhist based.
Okay, I'll agree with you a little bit on that point, but why do we have kata names like ”嘘空” (koku) and ”弾指” (danshi) in Gyokko ryu?

Why do we have a fist formation refered to as ”不動拳” (fudoken)?

Where does the ”波羅密多” (haramitsu/ta; a.ka. "paramita" in sanskrit) come from in ”詞謹 波羅密多 大光妙” (Shikin Haramitsu Daikomyou) ?
 

Don Roley

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Bujinkan arts are based on Shinto and Buddhism. Japanese culture is as well. I think shogun looked at the various Shinto elements in the art (and there are many) and just reacted to the idea that somehow Buddhism was the sole reason for the art being created as Jim seems to be trying to say.

And on that note, Jim- what you wrote is really pretty, but where are the facts and the detailed explinations?

Here is the problem that you may soon be running into. When you give sources, exact quotes and things like that then we can go and check them and see if they are vaild or have been taken out of context, etc. When you do not give things like that, as you are doing, then we have to really look at the person making the statements to see if they are knowledgable enough to state things without any other sources to back them up. I see that happening to you in the near future and speaking as a moderator it gets kind of like a pool full of pirannas around here. I do not like it when that happens and the best way I can see to avoid that would be for you to get more specific and start pointing people to exact quotes and sources for them to scream about instead of you.

In other words, pass the buck. :rolleyes:
 

Connovar

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My understanding is that Steve Hayes is priest of the Tendai sect of Buddhism. Perhaps it is this background which makes him tend to give more of a religious slant to ninpo origins.
 

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