Bruce Lee vs. Muhammad Ali who would win?

[punisher73]

Who would win in a real fight? Bruce Lee all the way. Boxing is a sport with many rules, and boxers train to win by those rules. Kung Fu has no rules, and they train every part of the body to be a weapon. Boxing is way to limited to stand a chance. Put Bruce Lee in the ring and put rules on him like no kicking, no elbows, ect, and you have just turned the fight into a joke. Real fighting has no rules, the closest thing to real fighting in a safe way is MMA. Put Ali in a MMA match and he would be destroyed. Ali was a master of Boxing and the rules of Boxing.
Boxers only use there arms, and dont even use elbows, backfists, knife hands. Boxing is so limited.

Shows your limited knowledge of boxing. You are right, if you are only talking about legal shots in the boxing ring. But, most fighters know how to add in dirty tricks while in the ring. Some of those include eye strikes, turning a hook punch into an elbow, stepping on an opponent's foot to pin him on the floor, forearm strikes off a missed punch, hammerfists and backfists.

NOW, throw in the old school bareknuckle techniques and you have kicks and throws.

 

[Xinglu]

Boxers are great fighters. The idea that they are a fish out of water on the street is erroneous at best. I have witnessed first hand what a boxer of moderate skill can do to a TMAist of considerable skill. This particular boxer used the "peek-a-boo" method and demolished his opponent and did so quite effectively.

Boxers use a small amount of motions, perfect them, and use them in a wide variety of combinations. Just like Xingyiquan... To call that limited shows a fundamental flaw in understanding movement, or is it a prejudice of sorts?

 

[kaizasosei]

Because of Lee's immaturity lippiness and moral compass spinning out of controll, i can envision a host of situations in life where he could get his *** handed to him by a great deal of people. From the enraged old man to just another tough guy off the streets. Even if his kung fu is great and he's fast and strong at certain times, when one doesn't stand firmly believing in own actions, one tends to become unaware and the dumbness is expressed in all sorts of misunderstandings, harshness and rudeness sometimes accompanied with physical confrontation. Hubris, the quality that angers the Gods.

After all, if martial artists or warriors are seekers, isn't one thing that most seek the fight, or the ability to controll the fight. Well, I think the world is full of fighting, it's all about managing it in a constructive way. Most fights being nonphysical. Also the most dangerous fights are not always physical but spiritual or psychological. The police being spiritual and the looney bin the latter.


Ali was a great boxer. He also practiced karate. So in the case of matching lee and ali, one can see that it would depend on the conditions of the fight because both fighters are very flexible in style.
My dad has always preached to me about Ali and how great he is. Ali would kid around and write poetry about himself and his opponents, apparently with the effect of psyching them out he would be controlling the whole encounter on a mental level.
This is just what i heard so i don't know how true it is and all, but i have seen and heard some of those scences where Ali spouts off all the poetry and i can believe it. However, i dare to say that somehow in that playfull way there may be something similar to how lee was, but much much smarter.

With all this said, somehow i still think that in a given situation if ready, lee was such a demon that he could indeed hurt or conquer many opponents believed to be large or strong, etc.
However, i don't think lee was at the level of being able to dose that well,be able to win without hurting much, and if, as said, his own spirit doesn't stop the effectiveness of his techniques, then he would be extremely brutal maybe cruel but most likely destructive. I also don't think lee would have had the ability to lose happily or lose for the sake of avoiding a greater evil-like ****ing someone up for unjust reasons or in an excessively cruel way.
It's a great skill to be able to handle a situation without hurting. Like with jujutsu or aiki and not breaking or snapping. Playfighting? For real, One on one, the fight starts anywhere over some problem stupid or serious, and escalates to hits, back and forth. One hits, then the other wants to hit back,blablabla bla and can escalate further to brutality.

One thing that helps in a real situation is to have a pure heart. When you too much imagine messing people up and build up such negativity, when the fight happens, you'll lock up, freeze and not know your enemy.

So was Lee really acting in those movies? Acting like a fool for sure.


j

 

[72ronin]

Hey blindsage, you'll have to explain the meaning of hyperbole to me, im sure you know what it means.

And its fact, that Ali said to his corner that it was the closest he's come to death (vs Frazier), now, one more round Ali ..
So there you have it, if Frazier was allowed out for that last round, it very possibly could have been the end of Ali..

How about Oyama vs Ali everyone

 

[Xinglu]

Hey blindsage, you'll have to explain the meaning of hyperbole to me, im sure you know what it means.

And its fact, that Ali said to his corner that it was the closest he's come to death (vs Frazier), now, one more round Ali ..
So there you have it, if Frazier was allowed out for that last round, it very possibly could have been the end of Ali..

How about Oyama vs Ali everyone

Hyperbole, and click here for an extended explanation.

 

[72ronin]

Thanks Xinglu




Blindsage i have a saying for you-

"Confucious say, Man with hole in pocky,
Feel cocky all day".

 

[repz]

Thanks Xinglu




Blindsage i have a saying for you-

"Confucious say, Man with hole in pocky,
Feel cocky all day".

Lol, this is hilarious!

 

[Omar B]

How about Oyama vs Ali

Oyama gets the nod from me, and not just because I'm from his linage.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Shows your limited knowledge of boxing. You are right, if you are only talking about legal shots in the boxing ring. But, most fighters know how to add in dirty tricks while in the ring. Some of those include eye strikes, turning a hook punch into an elbow, stepping on an opponent's foot to pin him on the floor, forearm strikes off a missed punch, hammerfists and backfists.

NOW, throw in the old school bareknuckle techniques and you have kicks and throws.

Yes I'm talking about boxing by the rules. We are talking about Ali, a pro boxer. Now if we are talking about a street fighter/dirty boxer, well then things change a bit.

 

[Xinglu]

Yes I'm talking about boxing by the rules. We are talking about Ali, a pro boxer. Now if we are talking about a street fighter/dirty boxer, well then things change a bit.

Ah, but Ali trained in TMA too. Furthermore, what makes you assume he would be limited to fighting by the rules of the ring while on the street?

 

[repz]

It might be limited in their range of techniques, but with what little they have is a lot. Evidence of how effective boxng is is a youtube search away. You got a boxer taking on a large group of people, a boxer taking on two guys, enough first hand accounts of many pro boxers beating people up in the streets, and even a boxer beating a cop who was obviously armed (yes, he was an idiot).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Who would win in a real fight? Bruce Lee all the way. Boxing is a sport with many rules, and boxers train to win by those rules. Kung Fu has no rules, and they train every part of the body to be a weapon.

And we see this tested how? You yourself stated that MMA is as close to a real fight as possible. WC and kung fu styles do not fare particularly well in that environment. WC is treated with derision by a goodly amount of MMA fans. What makes you think that Lee would somehow be the exception to this? Too-deadly-for-the-cage moves is not a viable answer.

Boxing is way to limited to stand a chance. Put Bruce Lee in the ring and put rules on him like no kicking, no elbows, ect, and you have just turned the fight into a joke.

Ali had training in things outside of boxing. He is documented to have trained with Jhoon Rhee, so it isn't as if kicks are foreign to him. No fight record in any of it, so I suppose it doesn't count. But then Lee has no fight record in anything and no documented fights of any kind outside of the movies.

Real fighting has no rules, the closest thing to real fighting in a safe way is MMA. Put Ali in a MMA match and he would be destroyed.

Now he would be. The man has Parkinsons. Had MMA in its current form been around at the time Ali was in his prime, however, he would certainly have trained for it before entering. Lee would have likely struggled more than Ali, not having any documented fights, in or out of competition. It is unlikely that he could have withstood the punishment the way that Ali in his prime is factually documented to have been able to.

Also, boxers have historically fared quite well against multifaceted strikers of other arts. The real question would be how Ali would handle grappling, which is not something that Lee was particularly known for (though I am sure that he had some level of grappling training under his belt, it certainly was not on the level of modern MMA fighters). It is also something that Lee would have to contend with as well.

Ali was a master of Boxing and the rules of Boxing.
Boxers only use there arms, and dont even use elbows, backfists, knife hands. Boxing is so limited.

This is kind of a tired argument and a flawed argument as well. This is really the only argument that anyone can make on Lee's behalf. Criticize Ali and the sport that he competed in because there really is nothing factual to base Lee's performance in a real fight upon. Ali outmatched Lee in every conceivable way in terms of a fight. Consider also that Ali was the kind of fighter that Lee specifically stated that he feared: the man who had practiced a limited few techniques thousands upon thousands of times.
"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks, but the man who has practiced one kick ten thousand times"

Before you ask if Lee could beat Ali in a fight, you must first ask yourself if he could beat George Foreman or Joe Frazier. Foreman in particular, who was, and likely still is, insanely durable and and insanely powerful. I question whether Lee in his prime could beat Foreman as his is now, let alone in Foreman's prime. Frazier and Ali in their prime would be out of the question.

Keep in mind that Lee set out to do something other than, and in my opinion, bigger than, just being a great fighter. Lee set out to be a star (and he succeeded) and to develop a system that would create great fighters (likewise, he succeeded). Had Lee lived, he likely would have continued to raise the bar on fight choreography and on production quality of MA movies in cinema, two bars that he set higher than anyone else at the time. More importantly, he likely would have been regarded as a trainer of fighters and the father of a very advanced and effective hybrid system and for his philosophy in MA (the latter two he has in fact achieved), which really were his true strengths.

Just to clarify, yes, I believe that Lee was certainly capable of fighting and defending himself. In no way do I mean to imply that he was some kind of paper tiger. Certainly, effective MA and what makes MA great goes well beyond fight records. Both Lee and Ali demonstrated this.

Now here is a question: How would Ali in his prime fare in modern MMA with Lee as his trainer and Lee fully versed in the rules of modern MMA? Now that would be a trainer/fighter combination that would have serious potential.

Daniel

 

[Joab]

From what I understand, Lee was a good teacher and put together an excellent system. His students who went on to become great teachers are a testament to Lee's success in this area.

What you understand is wrong. They told me he wasn't a very good teacher, and in fact used his students as punching bags. But he was a phenomenal fighter.

Absolutely it does not mean that he wasn't a great fighter. But just because he made some cool movies doesn't mean that he was either. It is very apparent from seeing him on screen that he was incredibly athletic and certainly had the tools to fight a mean fight. Certainly his peers in the industry spoke very highly of him in this.

Was he a great fighter? Probably.

But aside from hearsay and anecdotes, there is no documentation of this. Though I personally do agree that Lee likely was a great fighter. Was he on Ali's level? Not likely.

But whether or not Lee was a great fighter wasn't the question posed. You asked whether Lee or Ali would win if they fought. The facts favor Ali. That does not lessen Lee's abilities in any way. Ali was one of the greatest fighters and arguably the greatest boxer of the twentieth century. Lots of great fighters couldn't beat him. They were still great fighters though.


You posed a question on a public forum and got answers. You don't have to like them, but so long as you are posting on a public forum, and so long as the responses are on point and do not violate the site rules, asking people not to post is a bit unreasonable.

I think if you don't like a post ignore it. Let those who want to have a little fun speculate. It reminds of a guy who goes to party and does everything he can to spoil everybody's fun. And I will repeat, if you don't like the post ignore it, I think it is very rude and party pooping. If you don't like what I'm writing-tough!

Daniel

Daniel, have a nice day.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What you understand is wrong. They told me he wasn't a very good teacher, and in fact used his students as punching bags.

So you say that he was a lousy teacher, abusive to his students and has a rep based on nothing but anecdotes and hearsay. I was trying to say say something positive about the man, but if it is unwarranted then so be it.

But he was a phenomenal fighter.

I already stated that I had no doubts about his ability in this area, though whether or not he was phenomenal (as opposed to simply quite good or great) will never truly be known due to lack of documentation. He certainly was a phenomenal athlete. No debate there.

Of course that was not the premise of your thread. You asked whether or not he could beat Ali in his prime. Which is an entirely different subject. A lot of phenomenal fighters couldn't beat Ali in his prime. That did not make them any less phenomenal. The fact that you cannot see that is really your issue, not mine.

I think if you don't like a post ignore it. Let those who want to have a little fun speculate.

I'm not stopping them in any way. I'm even participating. I'm simply speculating in Ali's favor and can give factual reasons as to why without having to resort to anecdotes and hearsay. That is, by the way, positively contributing to your thread. Whether or not you can see that is your own affair.

It reminds of a guy who goes to party and does everything he can to spoil everybody's fun. And I will repeat, if you don't like the post ignore it,

Same to you, minus the preceding editorial comment.

I think it is very rude and party pooping. If you don't like what I'm writing-tough!

Rude to be involved in a public discussion? Or rude because I complicate the issue with facts? As for ignoring your posts, I will do so if I choose. Or I will respond if I choose, as this is a public forum. If you do not want responses that disagree with you or dispute you, then write a blog or don't post on a public forum. So long as you post on a public forum, you have the potential for responses that disagree with your POV. Just as I do.

Daniel, have a nice day.

You too.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Now if we are talking about a street fighter/dirty boxer, well then things change a bit.

Of which Lee was neither.

Ali's training in MA outside of boxing has already been addressed multiple times. Neither he nor Lee has any documented record of using any MA training in street fights.

Both had the training to deliver and defend against kicks. Only one (Ali) has a record of fighting resisting opponents of exceeding ability outside of the gym and movie set and being so successful at doing so that he is considered to be one of the greatest of all time.

You still have one opponent with a substantial reach, weight, and power advantage who may have also been the equal of the other in terms of speed.

So what changes?

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How about Oyama vs Ali everyone

In the boxing ring? Ali. In the no holds barred street fight that people keep mentioning, tough call there. Both men proved their mettle against resisting opponents and both were extremely tough.

Really it would depend upon who was able to control the fight in terms of pace and particularly distance.

If I had to pick one, it would still be Ali, mainly due to size reach and the speed he had for his size and his demonstrated ability to manage fights against a wide range of opponents. If Oyama controlled the fight, however, Ali would be in serious trouble. Then there is the question of grappling coming into play. I have no idea how good either man was in that area.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

But what if Lee showed up with a wooden bench and a nine section whip and Ali brought a folding steel chair and a trident

We all do realize that Bruce Lee is dead and Ali has Parkinson's disease right.

I doubt if Ali and Lee would have taken this discussion as seriously back in their prime... or when Lee was alive

 

[repz]

Oyama had blackbelts in karate and judo, so he had many ranges. And low kicks have been known to destroy boxers, i started as a boxer/american kickboxer, and low kicks really screwed me up back then. Its such an alien concept when you arent used to it, youd be surprised how easy it is to get koed with leg kicks on an untrained unconditioned figher.

Theres a video of Muay Thia vs boxing, and the boxer was koed on leg kicks alone, it should still be on youtube.

 

[Joab]

So you say that he was a lousy teacher, abusive to his students and has a rep based on nothing but anecdotes and hearsay. I was trying to say say something positive about the man, but if it is unwarranted then so be it.

One student of Lee's said he used his students as punching bags, and was not a good teacher and I want to make it clear it was not James Demille. I should have clarified that earlier.


I already stated that I had no doubts about his ability in this area, though whether or not he was phenomenal (as opposed to simply quite good or great) will never truly be known due to lack of documentation. He certainly was a phenomenal athlete. No debate there.

I'm convinced he was a phenomenal fighter and your not. End of discussion.

Of course that was not the premise of your thread. You asked whether or not he could beat Ali in his prime. Which is an entirely different subject. A lot of phenomenal fighters couldn't beat Ali in his prime. That did not make them any less phenomenal. The fact that you cannot see that is really your issue, not mine.

I conceded that I believed Ali would beat him in a boxing match, I do believe Lee would take out Ali in a no holds barred street fight in his prime, but we will never know.

I'm not stopping them in any way. I'm even participating. I'm simply speculating in Ali's favor and can give factual reasons as to why without having to resort to anecdotes and hearsay. That is, by the way, positively contributing to your thread. Whether or not you can see that is your own affair.

I didn't have any problems with you doing that. It was more "why do people lose touch with reality when discussing Bruce Lee" that bothered me, in reality he was incredibly fast with outstanding power and technique. I thought you had written worse than that actually, challenging the very premise of the thread, must have been a different poster.


Same to you, minus the preceding editorial comment.


Rude to be involved in a public discussion? Or rude because I complicate the issue with facts? As for ignoring your posts, I will do so if I choose. Or I will respond if I choose, as this is a public forum. If you do not want responses that disagree with you or dispute you, then write a blog or don't post on a public forum. So long as you post on a public forum, you have the potential for responses that disagree with your POV. Just as I do.

I liked most of what you wrote, I think it was a different poster I had in mind after reading your initial post. I don't have any problem with you believing Ali would defeat Lee. Those who believe there is no point in writing such a post in the first place should simply ignore it, as I do when I see posts that I think are really ridiculous.


You too.

Daniel

It was a different poster I was referring to by and large. Live long and prosper Daniel.

 

[Joab]

sheesh what a silly question... didn't you see Bruce Lee vs. Kareem Abdul Jabbar in Game of Death

If its a silly question ignore it, although I appreciate the humor in your response. I did admit it might sound like a silly question in my original post, but it can be fun to conjecture a fantasy fight even if it can never happen. The question was originally posted in a "Human Weapon" discussion forum some time back by someone other than me and elicited good discussion, some of the posts in this thread were good as well, including most of what came from Daniel Sullivan.