Bruce Lee vs. Muhammad Ali who would win?

[Joab]

But what if Lee showed up with a wooden bench and a nine section whip and Ali brought a folding steel chair and a trident

We all do realize that Bruce Lee is dead and Ali has Parkinson's disease right.

I doubt if Ali and Lee would have taken this discussion as seriously back in their prime... or when Lee was alive

It would have been an interesting exhibition fight, although the only way Bruce could win is if there were no rules at all in my opinion and I don't think Ali would risk the ability to walk for months, years or perhaps the rest of his life. Ali would have nothing to gain and everything to lose, as would Bruce, it likely would never have happened.

It is true that they say a good big man will win over a good small man, but with Lee's speed I think he would win in a no holds barred street fight. In a fight with rules that prohibit low kicks Ali would win big time in my opinion. They actually had to slow down the film when filming one kick Lee made in "Enter the Dragon" because the kick was so quick in live motion it looked fake.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm convinced he was a phenomenal fighter and your not. End of discussion.

It isn't a question of being unconvinced. I am open to the idea that he was, and he certainly had all of the tools to be. It is only the lack of documented fights that keeps me from saying yes, he was. Likewise, lack of documentation does not mean that he wasn't.

I will say that he was a phenomenal martial artist. I generally do not like the term, but there are a few people who actually and legitimately embody the term and Lee was one of them.

I conceded that I believed Ali would beat him in a boxing match, I do believe Lee would take out Ali in a no holds barred street fight in his prime, but we will never know.

No, we won't ever know for sure. I would enjoy a reasonably technical explanation from any of those who pick Lee as to why. A technical analysis that does not sandbag Ali. Unfortunately, I am not sure that enough hard information about Lee as a fighter exists to make such a comparison. Ali, of course, is a statistician's dream.

I didn't have any problems with you doing that. It was more "why do people lose touch with reality when discussing Bruce Lee" that bothered me, in reality he was incredibly fast with outstanding power and technique.

I can see where that would bother you. It was meant as a generality. Most often, people saying that Lee could beat fill-in-blank have no basis for the statement. That Lee was incredibly fast and had outstanding power and technique is a given. But the leap to him beating Ali in a no holds barred fight is nearly always made with the assumption that Ali couldn't do anything but box, which is false. The other issue is that people are holding up a man who has no fight record or been in any documented fights and making the statement that he could have or would have beaten champion level fighters, which in my opinion, is generally (not always) absurd.

Thus the comparisons frequently do not have a basis in reality because they generally confine the championship fighter to only what they could see of him in their chosen sport without taking the time to learn about what sort of training that fighter has (if any) in other areas.

I thought you had written worse than that actually, challenging the very premise of the thread, must have been a different poster.

Well, if it was me, then I probably said something less articulately than I could have or should have. Could have been a kneejerk reaction on my part. I reread some of my posts and I can see where I came across as a bit snarkey, over the top, or a bit of both.

I liked most of what you wrote, I think it was a different poster I had in mind after reading your initial post. I don't have any problem with you believing Ali would defeat Lee. Those who believe there is no point in writing such a post in the first place should simply ignore it, as I do when I see posts that I think are really ridiculous.

Just to be clear, I am not an Ali fan. There are fighters for whom I have a much greater affinity. Unfortunately, facts being what they are, Ali in his prime could probably have beaten many of them, both in and out of the ring. Heretical as it may sound, I'd pick Ali in his prime over Chuck Norris in his.

Daniel

 

[Joab]

Just to be clear, I am not an Ali fan. There are fighters for whom I have a much greater affinity. Unfortunately, facts being what they are, Ali in his prime could probably have beaten many of them, both in and out of the ring. Heretical as it may sound, I'd pick Ali in his prime over Chuck Norris in his.

Daniel[/quote]

Well, I have a lot of respect for Chuck Norris as a man. he has done a lot of good in the world with his kickstart programs, diverting at risk youth into martial arts training and helping them form self discipline and respect for themselves and others and helping them gain a work ethic and some good martial arts skills. I appreciate his courageous stand for Jesus Christ, it is good to see an Evangelical Christian who is also a celebrity who has not been tarnished by scandal. In a fight with Ali, Ali all the way in my opinion, but we will never know, while both were in their prime. Norris could defeat Ali quite easily now of course, as could a lot of old ladies, but that is of course the result of Parkinsons disease.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It would have been an interesting exhibition fight, although the only way Bruce could win is if there were no rules at all in my opinion and I don't think Ali would risk the ability to walk for months, years or perhaps the rest of his life. Ali would have nothing to gain and everything to lose, as would Bruce, it likely would never have happened.

Actually, Ali did engage in a fight that compromised his legs. You might find this article interesting. http://www.prophetsplace.com/aliinoki.shtml

The fight was a joke and was intended as a payday for both fighters. Ali spent the whole fight defending against kicks and Inoki spent the whole night trying to get Ali to come down and grapple with him. The rules that had been devised were pathetic to say the least and stacked against Inoki.

An interesting comment made by the author was that due to the Ali/Inoki fight, MMA in the US was set back substantially.

It is true that they say a good big man will win over a good small man, but with Lee's speed I think he would win in a no holds barred street fight. In a fight with rules that prohibit low kicks Ali would win big time in my opinion. They actually had to slow down the film when filming one kick Lee made in "Enter the Dragon" because the kick was so quick in live motion it looked fake.

Ultimately, the biggest factor would be whether or not Lee could overcome Ali's ability to control the fight. Ali in his prime was very, very fast, particularly for a man of his size, and Lee, documented fight or no, was lightning quick. If Ali controlled the distances and timing, his reach was enough that he could have picked Lee apart without ever allowing Lee close enough make use of his own attacks. Ali had made a career out of controlling the fight, which is really a major factor, more so in my experience than speed.

Now if Lee were able to keep Ali from controlling the fight, either in part or at all, then it would come down to who could land the decisive blows first.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Bruce Lee vs. Muhammad Ali

Then

VS

And Now

VS

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just to be clear, I am not an Ali fan. There are fighters for whom I have a much greater affinity. Unfortunately, facts being what they are, Ali in his prime could probably have beaten many of them, both in and out of the ring. Heretical as it may sound, I'd pick Ali in his prime over Chuck Norris in his.

Daniel

Well, I have a lot of respect for Chuck Norris as a man. he has done a lot of good in the world with his kickstart programs, diverting at risk youth into martial arts training and helping them form self discipline and respect for themselves and others and helping them gain a work ethic and some good martial arts skills. I appreciate his courageous stand for Jesus Christ, it is good to see an Evangelical Christian who is also a celebrity who has not been tarnished by scandal. In a fight with Ali, Ali all the way in my opinion, but we will never know, while both were in their prime. Norris could defeat Ali quite easily now of course, as could a lot of old ladies, but that is of course the result of Parkinsons disease.

Chuck is a good man, and one of those fighters for whom I have a much greater affinity. My money would be on Ali, but I'd be rooting for Chuck.

Daniel

 

[celtic_crippler]

Chuck Norris was a ...5 time I believe... champion at the IKC's.

He's not just an "action star."

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Absolutely. Which is why I refer to him as a fighter. His movie career was what he became famous for later on.

Daniel

 

[repz]

Chuck Norris also has a black belt in bjj under machado, so he, as well as Oyama, have the grappling game covered. I would tip my hat to them a bit.

 

[Xinglu]

Chuck Norris also has a black belt in bjj under machado, so he, as well as Oyama, have the grappling game covered. I would tip my hat to them a bit.

So I did some looking, every source I found indicates he has a brown belt under Machado family. While this is a huge accomplishment, it is most definitely not a BB.

 

[Xue Sheng]

:uhohh: Listen guys

You want to have a nice little thread about who would win Ali or Bruce that’s fine... But don’t be dissing Chuck… he won’t like it :anic:, experience and TV commercials tells me that just CAN’T be good :erg:

 

[blindsage]

True. I mean how do you hit a guy in the chin, when it's all fist under that beard? And the force from just one of his kicks, even if it misses, would be so utterly destructive, and that's not even mentioning the EMP and the radiation fallout.

 

[repz]

So I did some looking, every source I found indicates he has a brown belt under Machado family. While this is a huge accomplishment, it is most definitely not a BB.

On renzos site he put a link to wikepedia where it lists chuck norris as a black belt http://www.renzogracie.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,75/func,view/catid,21/id,1158/
But its possible he can be brown,but hes been training in bjj before royce ever entered ufc. Only source i found was wikepidia pages, and outdated links that claim he was brown in years before 2007, so i dont know if hes still brown. A brown belt in bjj is still an accomplishments, theres mma fighters at brown belt winning titles, but thats if he earned his rank.

 

[Xinglu]

On renzos site he put a link to wikepedia where it lists chuck norris as a black belt http://www.renzogracie.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,75/func,view/catid,21/id,1158/
But its possible he can be brown,but hes been training in bjj before royce ever entered ufc. Only source i found was wikepidia pages, and outdated links that claim he was brown in years before 2007, so i dont know if hes still brown. A brown belt in bjj is still an accomplishments, theres mma fighters at brown belt winning titles, but thats if he earned his rank.

Oh, I'm not trying to take anything away from him at all. Brown belt is a huge accomplishment in BJJ. There are guys with no more than a blue belt in BJJ winning matches in MMA. Add to the fact that Norris is a monster in the stand up game (remember he beat Joe Lewis TWICE!), I think he would fair pretty well against Ali in a NHB fight, he might even beat him if he could get inside and take him to the ground.

My thoughts on Lee: I think that with out a doubt he would have embraced BJJ and if he was still alive today, it would be added to the JKD mix. I also think he would have trained some of the best MMA fighter to grace the octagon.

 

[Joab]

Oh, I'm not trying to take anything away from him at all. Brown belt is a huge accomplishment in BJJ. There are guys with no more than a blue belt in BJJ winning matches in MMA. Add to the fact that Norris is a monster in the stand up game (remember he beat Joe Lewis TWICE!), I think he would fair pretty well against Ali in a NHB fight, he might even beat him if he could get inside and take him to the ground.

Yeah, beating Joe Lewis twice is no mean feat. I really don't think Chuck would have a chance against Ali, Ali weighed a lot more, was a lot taller, and had great foot work. Professional karate fighters don't normally beat boxers in the ring, I think Ali would be good at defeating high kicks. I don't think Chuck was ever quick enough to defeat Ali IMHO.

My thoughts on Lee: I think that with out a doubt he would have embraced BJJ and if he was still alive today, it would be added to the JKD mix. I also think he would have trained some of the best MMA fighter to grace the octagon.

Well, we will never know. He really didn't seem to be interested in ground fighting at all, but its possible he would have studied BJJ. I don't think he was really into training fighters so much as making a lot of movies and making a lot of money. I think he would have made a lot of really outstanding martial arts movies and be extremely wealthy.

 

[repz]

Oh, I'm not trying to take anything away from him at all. Brown belt is a huge accomplishment in BJJ. There are guys with no more than a blue belt in BJJ winning matches in MMA. Add to the fact that Norris is a monster in the stand up game (remember he beat Joe Lewis TWICE!), I think he would fair pretty well against Ali in a NHB fight, he might even beat him if he could get inside and take him to the ground.

My thoughts on Lee: I think that with out a doubt he would have embraced BJJ and if he was still alive today, it would be added to the JKD mix. I also think he would have trained some of the best MMA fighter to grace the octagon.

Definetly, Dan Insanto, Lees right hand man and jkd head instructor (or whatever title he has) has a black belt in bjj (well, again, i didnt bother to verify, but its on machados bio and its listed 2 years ago). And Lee did train with Judo Gene Lebell, so he was feeling the ground game.