Royce Gracie vs. Bruce Lee

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Kevin Walker

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As Bruce Lee said, his eyestrikes would stop a fight most quickly. So Royce Gracie would stand a very good chance of being blinded for the rest of his life if Bruce Lee were still alive and they had fought it out in the street.
 
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SMP

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gusano said:
The Gracie challenge has existed in Brasil for 75 years to this day. The challenge is for a fight without rules. If these are the parameters you refer to then the Gracies have stacked the deck to win a no rules fight and thereby proven the effectiveness of GJJ.

If Bruce and Royce fought 100 times it could come out different ways with different victors each time. If Superman fought Batman he would destroy him!
If my sister had a penis it would be bigger than mine...I mean, she'd be my brother. IF in one hand and defecate in the other and see which one fills up first!

Hedgehogey has restored my faith in mankind!
correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the UFC rules prohibit fish hooking, strikes to the spine and eye gouging. Now I have never met Bruce Lee but from my readings he would find the discussion of stylistic techniques advantages/disadvantages more interesting then who would win. Further Lee also indicated that the focus should not be on the outcome of the fight but the process.
 

hedgehogey

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SMP said:
correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the UFC rules prohibit fish hooking, strikes to the spine and eye gouging. Now I have never met Bruce Lee but from my readings he would find the discussion of stylistic techniques advantages/disadvantages more interesting then who would win. Further Lee also indicated that the focus should not be on the outcome of the fight but the process.
They do now. They didn't back in 1993. This is the fault of ignorant congressmen.
 

Makalakumu

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Bruce Lee could kick my butt and so could the majority of the Gracies. Perhaps they all have something to teach me... :asian:
 

Baoquan

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hedgehogey said:
Do you even know what a kimura IS? IT'S AN ARMLOCK. One used commonly in BJJ.
I have almost all of sakuraba's fights on tape. HE HAS NOT WON A SINGLE FIGHT BY KO. TKO means the referee stopped the fight, NOT by striking in this case.

All of Saku's fights? Then you're familiar with his Royler fight in which he repeatedly knocks Royler down with kicks, high and low, and lands a spinner. And yes, Saku won by kimura, but most of the fight was Royler scooting around on his but while Saku kicked him in the legs.

And didn't Dan Henderson KO Renzo with punches in Pride 13??

My point here is not that BJJ sucks - i'm well in favour of it, and plan on learning some myself....but the Gracie's are definately beatable, and by strikes....given, those strikes generatlly come from strikers with extensive grapplin' knowledge.

And as for your "fanboy hatred" - physician, heal thyself.
 

hedgehogey

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Baoquan said:
All of Saku's fights? Then you're familiar with his Royler fight in which he repeatedly knocks Royler down with kicks, high and low, and lands a spinner. And yes, Saku won by kimura, but most of the fight was Royler scooting around on his but while Saku kicked him in the legs.

And didn't Dan Henderson KO Renzo with punches in Pride 13??

My point here is not that BJJ sucks - i'm well in favour of it, and plan on learning some myself....but the Gracie's are definately beatable, and by strikes....given, those strikes generatlly come from strikers with extensive grapplin' knowledge.

And as for your "fanboy hatred" - physician, heal thyself.
Sure, those guys are great MMA fighters. Note *MMA* fighters. They know all ranges of fighting, standing, clinch and ground.

A *pure striker* has NEVER had success in MMA. There are fighters who prefer striking and those who prefer grappling. But if you don't know grappling, you're toast.

In fact, Sak didn't even train strikes at all until after his third fight!
 

Baoquan

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hedgehogey said:
A *pure striker* has NEVER had success in MMA. There are fighters who prefer striking and those who prefer grappling. But if you don't know grappling, you're toast.

Never? Never once?? I think you better take a deep breath, think, then post.

Granted, grapplers dominated early MMA, especially UFC, because the stand-up fighters were, on the whole, totally unprepared for dirt-rolling, and they had their butt's handed to them - but thats like turning up to a football game and only having offensive plays. Of course you're gunna get whooped. Once the strikers started learning take-down defence, which is only a small part of grappling, the playing field definately changed. Dan Henderson, for example, has excellent TD defence - so does Pedro Rizzo, who despite being a Vale Tudo fighter, has won the vast, vast majority of his fights by KO, TKO or submission to strikes (many from GnP, but his stand up power is amazing.)

How about Cal Worsham, a (gasp) TKD stylist?? His MMA record is not great (6-7-0), but those 6 ticks in the W column would indicate some success, dont you think??

And finally, does anyone remember a 220-or so-lb Kenpo BB knocking out a 600-or-so-lb wannabe-sumo in the early days of UFC?? Counts as a pure stirker in my book.

Grappling is a vital part of the MMA game, but a far smaller part of the MA game, as a whole. I likes it, i do, but i've sparred with BJJ guys, and its definately possible to beat 'em - i've done it....just as i've been pretzelled by them, in my turn.

As far as the OP - Wile E. Coyote wins by submission - Rocket Skate in Gracie's Butt. :uhyeah:
 

hedgehogey

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Baoquan said:
Never? Never once?? I think you better take a deep breath, think, then post.

Granted, grapplers dominated early MMA, especially UFC, because the stand-up fighters were, on the whole, totally unprepared for dirt-rolling, and they had their butt's handed to them - but thats like turning up to a football game and only having offensive plays. Of course you're gunna get whooped. Once the strikers started learning take-down defence, which is only a small part of grappling, the playing field definately changed. Dan Henderson, for example, has excellent TD defence - so does Pedro Rizzo, who despite being a Vale Tudo fighter, has won the vast, vast majority of his fights by KO, TKO or submission to strikes (many from GnP, but his stand up power is amazing.)

How about Cal Worsham, a (gasp) TKD stylist?? His MMA record is not great (6-7-0), but those 6 ticks in the W column would indicate some success, dont you think??

And finally, does anyone remember a 220-or so-lb Kenpo BB knocking out a 600-or-so-lb wannabe-sumo in the early days of UFC?? Counts as a pure stirker in my book.

Grappling is a vital part of the MMA game, but a far smaller part of the MA game, as a whole. I likes it, i do, but i've sparred with BJJ guys, and its definately possible to beat 'em - i've done it....just as i've been pretzelled by them, in my turn.

As far as the OP - Wile E. Coyote wins by submission - Rocket Skate in Gracie's Butt. :uhyeah:

You totally missed the point. EVERY succesful MMA fighter nowadays can grapple.

This isn't about MMA fighters who prefer to strike. They're still MMA fighters, and they all know how to grapple.

CROCOP can grapple, and has been forced to use it many times in his career.

Crocop can kick harder than anyone on this forum. I would venture to guess that crocop can kick harder than any equivalent sized mammal.

He still gets taken down. He still is forced to grapple.

His poor guard passing proved to be his undoing when he fought minotauro. Minotauro by armbar.

I would bet money on crocop as being the hardest kicker alive.

But when it goes down, he plays the ground game.

Having a ground game is not OPTIONAL. It is a neccesity.
 
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rmcrobertson

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Predator, easy. He--or she--has a much less silly name.
 

Baoquan

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Yes, someone is missing something.

Dude...if you make an argument true by definition, you're not really going to explore the possibilities much, are you?

Yeah, CroCop is a machine. Kicks really hard. Gets taken down. Loses on the ground.

Saku, on the other hand, is a grappler, but can strike amazingly well for a guy who's come to the game relatively recently. When he fought Royler, he did it standing, and kicking..when he went down, he got straight back up...and kept putting Royler down with kicks. The point is, striking is just as vital, because if you're an inneffective striker, a good MMA fighter will keep you at that range, and dominate you...and bringing us back to the OP, Lee was familiar with grappling - he spent time on the mat with Gene. He could potentially have kept a gracie at range - he was exceptionally talented at fighting at angles, and judging ranges and timing. I doubt he could have done it 100% of the time, but i doubt the gracie in question would have been successful 100% of the time - he's been stymied by fighters of far lesser talents than Lee.


We basically agree on the issue - MMA is a sport of ranges, and you need them all. I agree that grappling is vital to the MMA game - read my last post. But its not be all and end all. I cant believe you jump into the thread blasting folks as "nutriders" and "fanboys", and then happily evangelise away on your BJJ riff.


I didnt really jump in on the thread to argue who's daddy is bigger - i agree its pointless. But when you flame other posters as nutriders and fanboys, and then engage in some egregious nutriding of your own, the temptation to play devils advocate was just too much.

Jump on in, throw your ideas around, but a little self-examination goes a long way, you know?

Cheers

B
 

DavidCC

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"Dude...if you make an argument true by definition, you're not really going to explore the possibilities much, are you?"

"But when you flame other posters as nutriders and fanboys, and then engage in some egregious nutriding of your own, the temptation to play devils advocate was just too much.

Jump on in, throw your ideas around, but a little self-examination goes a long way, you know?"

"Never? Never once?? I think you better take a deep breath, think, then post."

This is how HH "wins" evey discussion, and has thus proved to the entire Intenet the BJJ is the best thing EVER INVENTED BY HUMAN BEINGS. Baoquan, joo ben pwned! ROFLMAO
:fart: :flushed:
 

hedgehogey

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Funny, I didn't even mention BJJ until after you guys brought it up.I just think it's ridiculous to compare royce, a midlevel proffesional fighter with bruce whose fighting carreer consists of one hong kong teenage boxing tournament.
 

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