Bruce Lee vs. Muhammad Ali who would win?

[72ronin]

Mike Tyson doesnt have a massive reach either.
Surely outide the ring ie; in the street you could give the smaller man half a chance LOL

Thai fighters arent monsters either, good thigh/knee kick does wonders to bring the tall timber down.

If you wanna bring down a tree you start with the trunk (or the balls, eyes etc etc etc)

 

[Bruno@MT]

I honestly wouldn't know enough to be able to make an educated guess. Ali might win because he was a great boxer, but Lee might win because Ali would be inexperienced at handling kicks to the knees.

We'll never know.
It's like asking who would win: Tyson or Ali.

 

[72ronin]

Mike Tyson, next question?

if tyson get inside, game over Ali.

Hmm, wonder if Lee could get inside?

(besides, i think Frazier would have killed Ali if they let him have that last round. He certainly knocked the sense right out of him. If you know what anticks Ali got up to pre-fight against Frazier, you wouldnt have as much respect for Ali..)

 

[Brian Jones]

Seriously? Ali. Lee was a phenominal speciman and Martial Artist. Very powerful, for a guy 5 7 and under 150 pounds. But, and I mean no disrespect, but Lee wwas a teacher and an actor. Ali was a professional fighter. Not I had a few fights with an 18 year old punk on a Hong Kong Roof top or an extra in my movie. He fought, and beat people like Liston, Frazier, Norton, George Foreman, and others. He had a great chin and in his prime incredible skills.
We don't need to wrap Lee in a shroud of invincibility to respect his skills.

Brian Jones <><

 

[punisher73]

I posted this earlier, but it didn't post. Anyway, I think many who have answered this question overlook the very real difference in the size of these men. At the time of his death, Bruce weighed about 125 pounds with a height of 5' 7". Compare this to Ali's massive size -- not to mention his huge advange in reach. This fight would have ended very quickly.

Agreed, many people overlook Lee's actual size because he was so ripped.

Ali trained with George Dillman, so I'm sure he would not be totally unfamiliar with how to deal with kicks.

As to Lee's undocumented fights. Here is a clip shown on the History Channel that is supposed to be one of Lee's Hong Kong rooftop fights. They have always been discussed as how viscious they were, so even if this clip is NOT Bruce, you will see that these fights are not what they were made out to be.

BTW: Ali, skill and size are too much for Bruce to overcome.

 

[chaos1551]

Come on! Lee's chi would melt Ali's brain before they even left home to go to the ring!

 

[Touch Of Death]

OK then what about Bruce Lee vs Chuck Norris in the Way of the dragon. I mean Bruce did ACTUALLY beat Chuck and it is just not thought possible these days for ANYONE to beat Chuck

Way off Topic, but Why was that Movie called "Return Of The Dragon" when I watched it on cable as a kid.
Sean

 

[Xue Sheng]

Way off Topic, but Why was that Movie called "Return Of The Dragon" when I watched it on cable as a kid.
Sean

I had to look that one up to make sure and I can tell you beyond any shadow of doubt that I was absolutely 100%...wrong

It was the "Game of Death" where Bruce fought Chuck (and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) and it was released after Bruce Lee had died

 

[72ronin]

You know, conversations like this, it suprises me the limit to peoples thinking..

Lets say the question was any Gracie vs Ali, You would all prob be saying Gracie!! Why?

You see, you would all take it for granted that a Gracie could get inside to grappling range, what, no one else could get to grappling range??

No ropes for Ali to use, no rules for Gracies to use.. Then the fight changes yes? Think about it, eyes are not of limits hell ya can bite if ya wanna lol, Now who would win.. Lots of variables to consider, like not just nice thigh kicks, attempted knee breaks - street fight for keeps. Still think Ali's hands would save him, then why are you bothering taining M/Arts then?


Weight classes eh?

Ye of little faith


Hey, lets make it interesting; Ali vs Oyama....

 

[72ronin]

Nah, bored already, Oyama would walk through Ali's little slapping flurries lol.


Its; M.TYSON VS M.OYAMA !!

 

[repz]

Way off Topic, but Why was that Movie called "Return Of The Dragon" when I watched it on cable as a kid.
Sean

Way of the Dragon was the name of the movie in Chinese release. In the USA, Enter the Dragon was the first released movie of Bruce Lee (or first popular release), they released Way of the Dragon as Return of the Dragon, since it was Bruce Lee's second film release in the USA and was released directly after Enter the Dragon.

Fists of Fury also has a different title, I believed its called Chinese Connection.

 

[72ronin]

Fist of fury, possibly the best movie of all time.
The remake of fists of fury with jet li was pretty good too

 

[JWLuiza]

You know, conversations like this, it suprises me the limit to peoples thinking..

Lets say the question was any Gracie vs Ali, You would all prob be saying Gracie!! Why?

You see, you would all take it for granted that a Gracie could get inside to grappling range, what, no one else could get to grappling range??

No ropes for Ali to use, no rules for Gracies to use.. Then the fight changes yes? Think about it, eyes are not of limits hell ya can bite if ya wanna lol, Now who would win.. Lots of variables to consider, like not just nice thigh kicks, attempted knee breaks - street fight for keeps. Still think Ali's hands would save him, then why are you bothering taining M/Arts then?


Weight classes eh?

Ye of little faith


Hey, lets make it interesting; Ali vs Oyama....

Hmmm. Blocked it.

With his head.

Are you saying size gives NO advantage? Do you think Gracie would fare as well as he did given the current UFC education?

Let's look at it from a probability stand point. Over an infinite amount of fights, I would say that Ali would win at least a 60-40 split.

 

[repz]

I never liked Bruce Lee technically, atleast from what i seen from his training videos. He was a big advocate of mixing gung fu with boxing, looking through his notes shows this, so obviously he appreciated the skill and power of boxing, and for him to say JKD training is superior is to say boxing is the ultimate system to create a superior formula. Well, this is comparing him to one of the ultimate boxers of the sport, the ultimate representative of what he chose to mix his art with. I have yet to be impressed with any training or fighting by Bruce, and I think a lot of people mix his amazing acting ability, and martial arts action scenes and choregraphy with real life.

I havent seen proof to any fighting accomplishments of Lee. And there are countless videos and firsthand accounts, and obviously world titles under Alis waist. He was untouchable, he was Bruce Lee in his movies, except he was doing that in real life with real people.

Bruce trained with Norris, Lewis, and many other martial artists. How come there are no records of him beating them? Lewis was a heavyweight pro karate champion (kickboxing), why didnt Lee jump at the chance to test his abilities on Lewis? How about when he met Judo Gene Lebell, a man that was known to take on any fighters at any time? Or any of the other champions that he met and trained with? Being such a strong supporter of testing abilities and sparring and breaking tradition you would imagine he would have leapt at the chance, but he never did (or if someone has proof, please share, I never found anything except more hilarious rumours that were proven untrue).

So, considering Ali is a fighter who fought world champions, and proved he is, and Lee didnt despite the chances he could have had with fighting martial artists and rumours (even the most out-of-this-world rumour about him cant compete with Alis real accomplishments) and lack of sparring or fights in his training history (but a ton of footage of him doing movie workouts), Ali would floor Lee in the first few seconds of a match.

 

[kaizasosei]

Did you see the movie Ipman yet? I know it's only a movie and i don't know to what degree it is accurate, but Ipman was Bruces teacher. Aside from his immaturity bruce was one of the most talented students.

In his movies, you can see the real aspect to his fighting. In the fight with Norris, they actually made contact.
Ask Norris or any martial artist that dealt with Lee, most everyone came away with some kind of feeling of learning stuff. Lee was the real deal. Just that he was terribly immature, vain/insecure and did not trust traditional ways enough and thought to cheat with the most modern technology and freely mixed styles-which can be both good or bad.
There is stuff that Bruce did that he himself did not understand at the time but it is something else. A genius is someone where you have the feeling, the talent is coming from somewhere outside of their natural realm of capability.
With that i am reffering to Bruce's movements in general. Distancing timing etc.

Bruce was not enough of an actor-and even if he didn't have that much vicious fighting experience in lifethreatening situations, his movements were generally pure reality-especially with timing and distance. Not choreographed always, but like a free dance. Only a real fighter is ready and eager to spar with anyone he can.

It does make me sad that he was such an out of control punk but i know that there are few that are carved of the same wood he was to such a degree. It's priceless. Too bad he started teaching and acting all allknowing before he was ready to show.
i believe, if Lee were to have developed his mind more and kept up what he was doing(or went to shaolin), i trust that if armed in mortal combat he just may well be able pull off a win against one hundred.






j

 

[punisher73]

Did you see the movie Ipman yet? I know it's only a movie and i don't know to what degree it is accurate, but Ipman was Bruces teacher. Aside from his immaturity bruce was one of the most talented students.

Bruce was not one of Ip Man's top students. He didn't learn the complete system from him and only spent about 5 yrs with him. As always, when students leave to create their own thing it is always they were one of the top students, never "they were alright, but lost to alot of the other students in chi sao" as was the case.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Way of the Dragon was the name of the movie in Chinese release. In the USA, Enter the Dragon was the first released movie of Bruce Lee (or first popular release), they released Way of the Dragon as Return of the Dragon, since it was Bruce Lee's second film release in the USA and was released directly after Enter the Dragon.

Fists of Fury also has a different title, I believed its called Chinese Connection.

Correct. Re-titling the film The Chinese Connection was a ploy to capitalize on the popularity of The French Connection with Gene Hackman -- that was a blockbuster film that featured one of Hollywood's most memorable car chases.

Back to the OP. Generally, I'd give it to Ali. I was watching the film Facing Ali on Spike the other night. One of the fighters talked about Ali going into the ring "prepared to die." Ali came from a tradition of fighters who were trained to go fifteen three-minute rounds. That's a lot of punishment on the body.

I doubt Lee, as disciplined as he was, ever had to contend with that kind of fighter.

 

[Sandwich]

This might sound harsh, but frankly I'd be surprised if Bruce Lee made it through the first round with Ali.

 

[72ronin]

This might sound harsh, but frankly I'd be surprised if Bruce Lee made it through the first round with Ali.

Nah, thats cool, most agree with that for the boxing ring.

How about Octagon? or the street?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Nah, thats cool, most agree with that for the boxing ring.

How about Octagon? or the street?

Octagon against Ali? Same result. Ali's ability to kick in a fight is as well documented as Lee's ability to do anything at all in a fight. Might be worse than in the boxing ring for Lee.

Against Ali outside of the ring? Bare knuckle? Lee is dead in half a round, and that is being generous.

There is no logic or rational thought in giving the nod to Lee. Only fanboyism.

Quite frankly, it is insulting to Ali to even make the comparison. Ali was a professional fighter. Lee was a B-movie actor and the equivalent of a second dan student who ran off to do his own thing. No fight record and no documented "street fights" to support his puffed up legend.

Keep in mind that Lee died in his relative prime and that is the way that we think of him. On the other hand, we have seen Ali age and decline, first as a fighter, then on a personal level. Lee's image will never endure him aging and losing his athletic prowess. The early death combined with Lee's larger than life movie persona served to create a legend, while Ali's real life record and personal struggles must stand on their own with no help from a movie career or an early death.

Also, it is in a way insulting to Lee. Every time these questions are posed (Lee vs. fill in the blank), they always pit Lee against guys with fight records who do or did nothing but fight.

Lee was not a professional fighter and I seriously doubt that he spent much time, if any, in street fights. That is not to say that he didn't ever fight or defend himself effectively, but he wasn't out there picking fights in the bar. I have been in fights and have defended myself effectively. I do not consider myself a street fighter and would never think of fantasy matching myself against a pro fighter, or even an amateur fighter.

These scenarios completely ignore Lee's accomplishments, and the were many.

For starters, Lee opened up martial arts themed movies to a mainstream audience. Lee was like the Elvis Presley of MA movies. Were there MA movies before Lee? Sure. But they were not widely viewed or accepted in mainstream culture. Lee made that possible. The same way that Presley made rock and roll acceptable in mainstream culture. No Elvis as a commercially viable act, no Beatles as a commercially viable act. Likewise, no Lee movies, no Li movies.

Lee had the uncanny gift of being able to distill the principles of martial technique into their essence and develop a means of teaching others to apply them in a way that was most suitable for them. Some people are much better suited to soft, circular stuff and others better suited to hard, linear stuff. Some are natural strikers, others natural grapplers. Lee recognized that.

And the results speak for themselves. JKD as a system has been proven effective by people who have learned it and applied to what they did and then made use of it, either in competition or in SD. If it was lame and pathetic, it would have died out. Lee was an innovator and he was good at seeing things for what they were and not for what they were presented as. In other words, he saw various kicks, punches, blocks, and ways of moving rather than 'Wing Chun' or 'Karate' or 'Boxing.' This definitely set the stage for modern MMA, but also changed the way that martial arts could be taught.

Lee's accomplishments should not be diminished by reducing him to a comic character in a fanboy versus argument. Ali's accomplishments should not be diminished by being fantasy matched against people who are neither professional nor amateur fighters (Ali was successful as both).

There is nothing wrong with fantasy match ups. They are a lot of fun and can get us thinking about the people in question in a different light. But matching Lee against Ali is like doing a fantasy match between the Saints and the top rugby team. Both sets of players are tough guys, but the game they play is very different.

If you really want to make a good comparison for Lee and Ali, try this:

Lee vs. Steven Seagal and Ali vs. Dolph Lundgren.

Daniel