Blocking vs. Evasion?

[Telfer]

A few weeks ago I posted a comment about Mike Tyson's training which involved the use of a 'slip bag'.

This is a small sand bag suspended swinging back and forth above the boxer's shoulders, requiring him to bob and weave while doing his routines to avoid getting hit.

Western boxing places a lot of emphasis on BOTH evasion and passive blocking, wheres Asian styles focus less on evasion and more on *active* blocking.

Is this a fair generalization?

And how do you choose between blocking and evading your opponent's strike?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A few weeks ago I posted a comment about Mike Tyson's training which involved the use of a 'slip bag'.

This is a small sand bag suspended swinging back and forth above the boxer's shoulders, requiring him to bob and weave while doing his routines to avoid getting hit.

Western boxing places a lot of emphasis on BOTH evasion and passive blocking, wheres Asian styles focus less on evasion and more on *active* blocking.

Is this a fair generalization?

And how do you choose between blocking and evading your opponent's strike?

Isshin-Ryu has a number of techniques for slipping punches, including those encapsulated in the Wansu kata.

http://www.isshinryu.com/wansu.htm

I am still just a beginner, but in my dojo, we train at slipping punches all the time. It does require speed and timing, both of which I lack in some degree, but I'm working on it. It's definitely part of the art I study.

In some cases, we combine a slip with a block and counter-attack. Common self-defense drill which we practice all the time.

 

[Aiki Lee]

In aiki ninjutsu we don't block at all so the idea that Asian styles focus primarily on blocking is not well founded as our art is based on 12 Japanese martial traditions.

We mostly do evasion of attacks or we attack the limb that is sent at us, or we deflect it. In my mind this is different from blocking, because when I think of blocking I think of absorbing the impact of the attack.

Even among certain karateka I have heard that most "blocking" are either deflections or directly attacking the limbs of the opponent as tey attack you.

 

[Telfer]

Even among certain karateka I have heard that most "blocking" are either deflections or directly attacking the limbs of the opponent as they attack you.

Yes, this is what I referred to in the OP as 'active blocking'.

I think Bruce Lee called it 'defensive offense'.

 

[Xinglu]

Western boxing places a lot of emphasis on BOTH evasion and passive blocking, wheres Asian styles focus less on evasion and more on *active* blocking.

Is this a fair generalization?

I feel it is a hasty generalization without much foundation. All MA have elements of both and the emphasis evade or intercept varies as much between the arts as it does within the various arts (from practitioner to practitioner).

For example Aikido is an entire MA built around evasion and redirection (not interception [force on force]. While they do teach interception, it is only done to further the evasion and/or redirection of energy).

Taijiquan teaches both equally however, practitioners seem to lean one way or the other.

Xingyiquan is almost entirely intercepting techniques to break your opponent down and jam him up. With that said, I have seen Xingyiquan practitioners use evasion (just never in retreat ) and even favor it.

Baguaquan heavily favors evasion but once again, I have seen practitioners focus on the arts interception qualities.

Kenpo/Kempo favors interception, yet there is that jujutsu element where evasion and redirection is taught. In fact, I know a great many Kenpoka who due to size and/or age prefer evasion.

The list goes on and on. The point is that it depends on the individual practitioner. If I were fighting a larger Karateka, I would expect to be met with intercepting techniques. A smaller or older Karateka I would expect to see more evasion techniques. If I were to just lump all Karateka into one or the other, I would find myself quite surprise and in a world of hurt if I squared off with one.

I mean, even in boxing you have a big difference, just look at the difference between Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. Their fighting styles were almost polar opposites, yet they were both boxers.

And how do you choose between blocking and evading your opponent's strike?

Knowledge of my opponent. In general: are they bigger and stronger then me? If so, evade and counter fiercely. If they are of equal size and strength, then maybe a bit of both, unless I am faster than they are. Chances are I will never be attacked by someone smaller and weaker, unless they have superior numbers. And being a small guy myself, I doubt that I will be jumped by leprechauns anytime soon.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've been thinking about this thread today, and one thing that I think merits consideration is that in boxing, the hands are all that can be used for attacks. No knees, no elbows, no kicks, no throws, etc. Only the hands.

Therefore, if one were boxing, one would not want to use one's hands to block; it would take the tools of attack away. Evasion would be key, so that the hands can continue to attack.

With most Eastern martial arts I am familiar with, there are no rules on what attacks may be employed. Therefore, using the hands and arms to block, entangle, and otherwise tie up an adversary is not necessarily a bad thing - the knees, elbows, feet, and even the head are still available as weapons, not to mention throws and locks employed when blocking.

So perhaps that is why one might think boxing is more about evasion and Eastern martial arts more about blocking. But in reality, evasion is taught as well - it's just that it is not necessarily a 'bad thing' to put the hands and arms in a position where they cannot strike for a moment, as it would be with boxing.

Hope that makes any kind of sense.

 

[seasoned]

I will be 100% honest with you, I don't have a clue until it happens. We train a wide spectrum of technique, which should prepare us for what ever happens. I will say this, when I was younger, it was straight on, but if you are true to the kata, you will find each one contains taisabaki (body shifting) which is not only conducive to conflict as you get older, but preferred. I often ask myself, could the older me, have beaten the younger me. Well the younger me would probably say no chance old man, but, the older me says, we ain't going to be sparring. The older me needs to get things over a lot faster, with minimal effort. That is, I will have to save my energy for striking as apposed to blocking. I find myself talking more as I get older, as in this post but when the talking stops, I am good for about a minute. I hope I enlighten someone with my last post for 2009, and with that, Happy New Year to all of my MT friends. :asian:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I find myself talking more as I get older, as in this post but when the talking stops, I am good for about a minute.

My dad used to say "For sixy seconds, I'm as good as I ever was. Want some?" I never wanted any. Happy New Year to you too!

 

[Jimi]

My opinion is that some peoples perception of what is evasion tends to differ. Boxers do not only consider bobbing or weaving evasions, but stepping, turning and swaying are evasions.

Not only does evasion understanding and practice differ from art to art , but from teacher to teacher. I have seen young students training in kickboxing (Eastern= Muay Thai, Lethwei, etc... and Western PKA, etc...) and when I put up a rope for slipping drills, the young ones jump under the rope, "I know this!" and they stand flat footed right under the rope only slipping the head repeatedly in a horsesheo shape. LOL. They think that is it, head slip only. Then when i show them to slip-n-step under the rope and tell them to move their whole body into a full body slip, They are confused and upset, "My Instructor never showed me this" as if that statement makes my principles moot, lol. they return to the slip, "See!?" feet flat neither moving forward, backward, or side to side, head slip, eyes dropping down, hands lower than shoulder level, no body movement. I ask "Show me how that works" they say "You jab, I slip head slip out, you cross, I head slip out, you hook I head slip out, you can't hit me", LMAO!

So I say "Show me that again", as if he was teaching me a lesson, He says "OK" "You jab I head slip out, you cross I head slip"- by then I have stepped in from the jab and dug into his body w/ hooks, uppercuts and what some call upset punches (upward angled body hook/uppercuts on an approx. 45 degrees into the ribs." Hey you can not do that!" LOL, "Yes I can!, Your opponent will not just stand flat footed as you are just throwing jab cross hook for you to look cool slipping. If I can not find your head in 1 or 2 shots and you have not full body slipped or stepped, I will kill the body because your belly button never moves", "But, But, But" he stammered, lol. His Instructor stood there shaking his head because his student could not see beyond the 1 aspect of a drill he was given. One slip does not all evasion make.

Yes i know the story is breaking my own arm patting myself on the back, lol, but it also shows how many can see only 1 simple aspect of potentially more complex evasions. In the ABA there is a 9 count stepping drill which teaches evasion stepping, step, turn, sway all techniques for removing your targets. A very good set of skills for beginners of any art. The ABA Blocking drill was then taught after the Stepping drill was absorbed well, then the skills were to be merged so to speak, step, block/deflect and then counter offense. Good sequence of blending skills.

I have seen many arts in commercial schools teach, Hi, side, Lo, block as intro then now you learn front punch reverse punch front kick side kick round kick hook kick back kick, inside cresent kick outside cresent kick, etc... and absolutly no evasion, or slipping or target removal what so ever, lol, my god my 1st Instructor is rolling over in his grave.

Many arts have their own techniques for some kind of evasion, an Aikido practioner will absolutely side step or slip a punch or kick in their own manner. Bagua practitions will evade in their own manner as well as will Tai Chi practioners etc...etc...etc...

Try not to judge another arts evasions for your systems prefered evasions, many ways to skin a cat, lol. I feel evasions are like mathmatical formulas, simple + simple + simple equals complex, this is just my analogy. If you only have 1 aspect of evasion, you are missing the rest of the world. Example- Mauy Boran & Bama Lethwei many many years ago never slipped and evaded the way they now do due to their introduction to western boxing evasion/slipping skills, now many MT practioners will slip , cross hook cross, slip hook cross hook etc..like never before seen in the ancient arts ways (Not saying MT etc... never slipped or evaded, just they never slipped like they do now like western boxers). Much to learn from many arts principles.

I just dislike an inexperienced youth in martial arts preach footwork and evasion, then all they do is either flat footed head slip or the TKD pogo jumping footwork (LOL) right in place neither advancing or retreating or side stepping and call it footwork when all they are doing is giving their opponent a steady rythum of "I am here, I am here, I am here", LOL.

Please forgive my self important opinions, but I am disappointed in these youth or half understanding instructors with less than a quarter of the playbook so to speak and feel they are full of knowledge, lol.

Now Blockiong is a different animal than evasion, it is all defensive skill sets as opposed to offensive skill sets like punching , kicking etc... In my opinion Blocking is not unlike a shield technique = force meets force head on. many hard syle systems profess, a block is a hit, a hit is a block. Stirke/Punish the hand or foot that dare attack you. This is common for many hard styles. Other defensive techniques are not quite as bull, boar or canine like, some are feline, like parrying and deflections. In some way similar to european fencing deflections, redirect energy rather than clash with it. These I find work very well along with sound evasions, like this formula of blended skills so to speak. Aikido and other soft or gentle arts tend to use these deflection w/ evasion and add a locking or throwing or repulsing counter, sometimes right into a wall or bar or floor, lol. LOVE IT. A good deflection typically (Not always) uses less effort or foce when apllied soundly.

I feel that evasion skills like steps, turns, etc... followed by sound blocking/shielding even deflection skills should be taught first off in most arts that are even defined as a strking art. Especially some commercial schools do not teach this way due to the fact that most families, children involved in some arts are bored or not interested by such skills and want to learn the helicopter kick or whatever jump kick is popular due to the kid martial arts movie (3Ninjas, Spy Kids, etc...)

EVASIONS & BLOCKING- LEARN IT, LIVE IT, LOVE IT!

 

[K-man]

I am of the school that believes that 'blocks', as such have very little place in the martial arts. We will sometimes move in and jam but to actually block an attack signals the end of your opponent's first technique and the trigger to launch his next attack.
Now, evasion can mean two things. Firstly, we move off the line of attack as in ashi tsabaki. That gets us out of the firing line, especially if someone is charging us. The disadvantage is that our opponent mostly retains control of his centre and can easily redirect his attack. Secondly, as Seasoned pointed out is tai tsabaki where we intercept and redirect the opponent's attack, most often breaking his balance and creating the opportunity to strike or apply any other suitable technique.
The secret to all this is to go back to our basic 'blocks'. In Goju, almost without exception, they are two-handed. The first hand deflects the attack and the second hand is actually a strike. Unfortunately, very few instructors teach this application, prefering instead to teach the obvious application. My question to them is, "Would you ever use the blocks you teach in a bar or street situation?" The answer is inevitably "Well no ... but, ..... !!" The next question becomes, "Then why teach them at all if you wouldn't use them in real life?" :asian:

 

[jks9199]

Blocking and evasion go hand-in-hand; you can only meet force with force so far, unless you give yourself an advantage. You just run into a variant of "unstoppable force vs unmovable barrier" otherwise. You gain that advantage through evasion.

I read an interesting piece by Dave Lowry wherein he noted that the words we commonly traslate with block and the term uke really have more to do with "receiving" than stopping; it's a powerful concept when you start working with it.

Evasion can take many forms; it may be a small slip or turn or pull of the body, or an angular step or a huge leap. Or it can be repositioning the attacker by moving the attack (aikido does this a lot). It's pretty amazing how small a step or shift is needed to negate an attack -- and then how much you can do when you're out of immediate danger through evasion.

 

[K-man]

I read an interesting piece by Dave Lowry wherein he noted that the words we commonly traslate with block and the term uke really have more to do with "receiving" than stopping; it's a powerful concept when you start working with it.

'Uke' doesn't translate as 'block', period. It translates, 'receive'. To call 'uke' block is a carry-over from the karate introduced into the Japanese schools in the early 1900s and learnt by Westerners in postwar Japan.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I've been thinking about this thread today, and one thing that I think merits consideration is that in boxing, the hands are all that can be used for attacks. No knees, no elbows, no kicks, no throws, etc. Only the hands.

Therefore, if one were boxing, one would not want to use one's hands to block; it would take the tools of attack away. Evasion would be key, so that the hands can continue to attack.

With most Eastern martial arts I am familiar with, there are no rules on what attacks may be employed. Therefore, using the hands and arms to block, entangle, and otherwise tie up an adversary is not necessarily a bad thing - the knees, elbows, feet, and even the head are still available as weapons, not to mention throws and locks employed when blocking.

So perhaps that is why one might think boxing is more about evasion and Eastern martial arts more about blocking. But in reality, evasion is taught as well - it's just that it is not necessarily a 'bad thing' to put the hands and arms in a position where they cannot strike for a moment, as it would be with boxing.

Hope that makes any kind of sense.

It's a good thought, but take Muay Thai as an example........virtually no striking surface is off limits, but they move and evade like a boxer.

I suspect the commonality there is one of the heavy emphasis on actual competition.......Muay Thai is much like Boxing with all the body weapons, and it is performed in much that same manner.

What I suspect is that actual fighting between two opponents as it's done in Boxing and Muay Thai tends to result in one getting favored over the other.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I am of the school that believes that 'blocks', as such have very little place in the martial arts. We will sometimes move in and jam but to actually block an attack signals the end of your opponent's first technique and the trigger to launch his next attack.
Now, evasion can mean two things. Firstly, we move off the line of attack as in ashi tsabaki. That gets us out of the firing line, especially if someone is charging us. The disadvantage is that our opponent mostly retains control of his centre and can easily redirect his attack. Secondly, as Seasoned pointed out is tai tsabaki where we intercept and redirect the opponent's attack, most often breaking his balance and creating the opportunity to strike or apply any other suitable technique.
The secret to all this is to go back to our basic 'blocks'. In Goju, almost without exception, they are two-handed. The first hand deflects the attack and the second hand is actually a strike. Unfortunately, very few instructors teach this application, prefering instead to teach the obvious application. My question to them is, "Would you ever use the blocks you teach in a bar or street situation?" The answer is inevitably "Well no ... but, ..... !!" The next question becomes, "Then why teach them at all if you wouldn't use them in real life?" :asian:

Kind of what I was getting at in my previous post.......in a flowing combat between two fighters, some types of hard blocking i've seen tends to set up the blocker to be struck in a different direction, if you get my meaning.

 

[MJS]

A few weeks ago I posted a comment about Mike Tyson's training which involved the use of a 'slip bag'.

This is a small sand bag suspended swinging back and forth above the boxer's shoulders, requiring him to bob and weave while doing his routines to avoid getting hit.

Western boxing places a lot of emphasis on BOTH evasion and passive blocking, wheres Asian styles focus less on evasion and more on *active* blocking.

Is this a fair generalization?

And how do you choose between blocking and evading your opponent's strike?

While many traditional arts may opt to block, there are many people who crosstrain and add in those boxing concepts to their art. I feel that alot comes down to having good footwork as well...being loose and fluid and not stiff and rigid.

How do I choose what to do? I don't. I just do what feels more natural. In other words, when I'm sparring or doing techniques, I'm not sitting there thinking, "Ok, the next time this guy throws a punch I'm going to slip is rather than block."

 

[punisher73]

It's a good thought, but take Muay Thai as an example........virtually no striking surface is off limits, but they move and evade like a boxer.

I suspect the commonality there is one of the heavy emphasis on actual competition.......Muay Thai is much like Boxing with all the body weapons, and it is performed in much that same manner.

What I suspect is that actual fighting between two opponents as it's done in Boxing and Muay Thai tends to result in one getting favored over the other.

Modern sport Muay Thai looks and acts very much like modern boxing, the older style of Muay Boran has more techniques were you are blocking and breaking the opponent's limbs and using the elbows and knees for limb desctruction. Also, look at how many boxers fight in the ring almost completely bent over at the waist probing for an opening, or bending over at the waist to avoid a series of punches, agiain very effective when the targets are all limited to the front of the body and nothing below the naval. Whatever style you study will evolve for what you train it for.

This is one of the big differences in looking at boxing vs. a TMA. Boxing is the best at what it does for unarmed combat in a ring with no blows below the naval (not saying that there isn't carry over to self-defense). But, look at old school boxing when you had foot stomps and throws. Also, look at how many boxers fight in the ring almost completely bent over at the waist probing for an opening, or bending over at the waist to avoid a series of punches, agiain very effective when the targets are all limited to the front of the body and nothing below the naval. Whatever style you study will evolve for what you train it for.The guard and approach was very different because you had different strategies and while certain tools can be effectively used, there will need to be others that are modified or discarded. No matter what approach you take.

As someone else pointed out "uke" means to receive and not block as how most people think of it. Secondly, the parry and redirection is built into the basic kihon training of the techniques. You cross your hands in front before performing the block with the other hand. This is a minor move and then you train the major move. Other body movements are in the kata, but also remember that arts like karate are based on the idea of civilian self defense. In this case you aren't squaring off with an opponent and assuming a guard position looking for an opening like you do when you spar. The attack is already there and you are doing your best to survive the initial assault and take control/escape. If you knew you were going to be in a fight you would take the initiative with a first strike and still would not be as concerned with a guard position and looking for openings etc.

In the end, they are all tools in your tool box that you will need and need to be able to respond with the appropriate technique.

 

[khand50]

when i trained in tae kwon do many years ago we were taught formal blocking techniques. "if" a block was designed to stop a blow from coming in, then one would really have to condition their arms to receive the blow properly.
when i trained in isshin ryu last year, they told me that the blocks werent really designed to stop the blow but to damage the oncoming attacking tool. if you front kick me, i sidestep and my "downward block" is aimed at your leg to injure you. i liked that interperatation.
bruce lee said, no passive blocks. he would rather lin sil die dar, which is simultaneous block and strike, or he would cut into the blow and hit, which was taken from fencing, or evade and hit the body directly. these are the three main ideas i have gotten from his progression in self discovery we know as jkd. he went from the wing chun concept of blocking and redirecting blows, to the fencing example of cutting, to an open, more evasive, boxer-like structure of moving and hitting. using distance to control the fight. not everyone can move well enough so it is good to learn all applications. the opponents action will become your action. whatever energy he gives you, you will respond accordingly. train it all and be prepared for anything and everything.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I am of the school that believes that 'blocks', as such have very little place in the martial arts.

My question to them is, "Would you ever use the blocks you teach in a bar or street situation?" The answer is inevitably "Well no ... but, ..... !!" The next question becomes, "Then why teach them at all if you wouldn't use them in real life?" :asian:

I was always taught blocking in any martial arts that I have done. I was also taught evasion, when I first heard that some martial arts do not teach blocking at all I was quite surprised, I mean why would you not block. Many arts such as Muay Thai and boxing et al get along quite well without doing much blocking but one thing I have noticed is that the fighters in these martial arts tend to get hit a lot so they rely on being able to take a hit. In a street self defence situation you cannot afford to get hit even once, there have been many one punch deaths in recent years. Evasion is much easier on your body than blocking but requires more time and energy and after the strike is evaded the opponents momentum and direction of movement remains largely unchanged. The great thing about blocking is that you can redirect the attack wherever you want it to go. A good block will not only redirect the attack but will also damage the attacking tool, even to the point of breaking the attacking arm. You can also strike at the same time as you block. The are some techniques however that you should only block as a last resort, such as a hooking kick or crescent kick and it is better to evade.

Would I ever use the blocks I teach in a bar or street situation? Most definitely YES, otherwise why learn and teach them.

 

[Cyriacus]

I was always taught blocking in any martial arts that I have done. I was also taught evasion, when I first heard that some martial arts do not teach blocking at all I was quite surprised, I mean why would you not block. Many arts such as Muay Thai and boxing et al get along quite well without doing much blocking but one thing I have noticed is that the fighters in these martial arts tend to get hit a lot so they rely on being able to take a hit. In a street self defence situation you cannot afford to get hit even once, there have been many one punch deaths in recent years. Evasion is much easier on your body than blocking but requires more time and energy and after the strike is evaded the opponents momentum and direction of movement remains largely unchanged. The great thing about blocking is that you can redirect the attack wherever you want it to go. A good block will not only redirect the attack but will also damage the attacking tool, even to the point of breaking the attacking arm. You can also strike at the same time as you block. The are some techniques however that you should only block as a last resort, such as a hooking kick or crescent kick and it is better to evade.

Would I ever use the blocks I teach in a bar or street situation? Most definitely YES, otherwise why learn and teach them.

Boxers and such do block, alot. Using guards. Why? Because boxing happens right up close, as does muay thai. And identifying every individual strike is alot harder than it sounds when they stop making sense. Blocks are good for the first strike, sometimes the second if you ignored the first. After that, have fun trying.

 

[celtic_crippler]

A few weeks ago I posted a comment about Mike Tyson's training which involved the use of a 'slip bag'.

This is a small sand bag suspended swinging back and forth above the boxer's shoulders, requiring him to bob and weave while doing his routines to avoid getting hit.

Western boxing places a lot of emphasis on BOTH evasion and passive blocking, wheres Asian styles focus less on evasion and more on *active* blocking.

Is this a fair generalization?

And how do you choose between blocking and evading your opponent's strike?

Depends on the scenario: type of attack, anatomical position (relation of my place in space theirs), what my follow up is going to be (what weapon is going to be used in relation to the best target available), and factors of timing (how quickly did I recognize the attack for instance)

There are times where a block is appropriate and times when a parry is appropriate.