That, good sir, is mutual combat. If hed wanted to hurt you, it wouldnt have been a fight.
Blocking vs. Evasion?
- Thread starter Telfer
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RTKDCMB
Senior Master
Just to be perfectly clear the style of TKD I do and teach is a martial art of self defence. It has no sporting aspects whatsoever, we do not compete or wear protective gear of any kind. I suspect the TKD you are thinking of is the Olympic style where it is 90-95% kicks. We teach TKD as it was originally taught in the beginning. It is probably about 30-60% kicking and has a full range of grappling techniques, weapon defences and ground fighting for a striking art. We are probably closer to Shotokan Karate than we are to other TKD styles.
I am not usually the most calm person but in the times that I have been in self defence situations I have always been calm and able to think clearly, even when I was approached one night by about 20 people carrying chains, baseball bats and iron bars (some sort of extreme neighborhood watch) so I have never had an issue with adrenalin dump. By forethought I am referring to the time it takes from where I see the attack coming to the time where I overide my first instinct and block it, maybe 1/10th of a second. I didn't see anything 'superior' in the blocking video.
Lyota Machida is a Shotokan karateka who did well in the UFC. This clip shows different things including using the deep stance in attack, but most interesting is the quite long segment showing him being attacked. He dodges, evades and parries but not one block. If blocks are so good why is a top karate fighter not using them to effect against his opponent in a pretty intense situation? You could even say as Cyriacus said in the previous post, this is mutual combat. A street fight with no quarter is even more intense because there is no ref to stop the fight.
Skip to 3.17 and watch to 6.30
Skip to 3.17 and watch to 6.30
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First, from what ive seen of Rhee Taekwondo, they spar from kicking distance, much like the ITF and WTF and GTF. So do most non-contact systems, and some contact systems. Thats fair enough. As an experiment, next time youre sparring, get to a distance where you can just reach someones torso with your heel (with contact. just judge the range), then charge in throwing punches toward their head and just keep moving forward, even if your body collides with theirs. No stance, no technique. All speed and power and linear movement. Youll find that your definition of non-contact will change from range, to pulling every single one of your strikes short of contact. They wont fend you off with a kick because youll have gotten too close in your first step. They might freak out and start punching at you. Or they might stand there trying to block whilst backpeddaling back to 'their' range. If they freak out and start punching at you, theyre forgetting all their training and defaulting to reflex. Its just a suggestion, but it isnt baseless or theoretical.
Second, if you saw a group of people like that, why didnt you just call the police? Also, if those 20 people blitzed you, good luck staying calm.
PS: If he hits you in this experiment, ignore it and keep going. Striking doesnt do much damage, especially once youre used to it. And throw a minimum of 20 punches, or until your arms are exhausted. Whichever comes first.
What i see is Machida not wanting to stand and brawl. Another good point would be that in a street fight, thered be more obstacles to stop him from doing that.
I can find a denizen videos of fighters who prefer stand and brawl over out-fighting (outside, as in range, for any who arent aware)
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It is just that it is a whole heap of clips demonstrating evasion rather than clashing. Post some of the brawling ones and we'll see if there are any traditional karate blocks in evidence. I posted Machida because he is Shotokan karate. If blocking is such a big thing, why doesn't he just block and come in? When I get back to the computer I'll post a real favourite of mine, Bas Ruten. Now he's TKD but is totally reality based and one of the top SD guys around. I actually have some of his DVDs to try and see how he incorporates his martial art into his RBSD. :asian:
Blocking is okay, but you have to be very careful with it.
It also is a situation where you have to consider the environment as well.
Blocking would work great against a equal or smaller assailant, but if the person is stronger or bigger than you then you will get pounded maybe into the ground even or could end up with a broken limb.
I learned from studying Hakko Ryu Jujutsu that you should get out of the way of the direction of the attack and block/parry the punch so that you have avoided the impact and yet are close enough to grab the assailant and take them down.
It also is a situation where you have to consider the environment as well.
Blocking would work great against a equal or smaller assailant, but if the person is stronger or bigger than you then you will get pounded maybe into the ground even or could end up with a broken limb.
I learned from studying Hakko Ryu Jujutsu that you should get out of the way of the direction of the attack and block/parry the punch so that you have avoided the impact and yet are close enough to grab the assailant and take them down.
mook jong man
Senior Master
Really , probably because you don't know what your looking at.
They are practicing Chi Sau , the close range combat exercise of Wing Chun.
Further into the video they start trapping and trying to find gaps in the partners defence to hit through , this is called Chi Sau sparring.
The older man on the right is Sifu Augustine Fong if I'm not mistaken , and he is doing a damn fine job of nullifying and dissolving all of his opponents attempted attacks.
Most fights will involve some sort of contact with the opponents arms , at this close range there is no time to think and your eyes become virtually useless.
Contact reflexes honed by hours of Chi Sau training enable a persons arms to be on a type of Auto Pilot , each arm will almost have a mind of its own.
Constant "Forward Force" generated from the elbows means that if there is a gap in the opponents defence , the arms will automatically spring forward and strike without conscious thought.
Once in contact with the opponents arms , changes in pressure or the direction of force from the opponent can be felt and will signal an impending attack.
An appropriate response will then be selected according to the type of force it is and the direction it is going.
This response will invariably take advantage of the opponents committed force , and put the opponent in a bad position with targets opened up on his head or body.
These techniques are independent of thought and happen in nano seconds.
It's not as easy as it looks and can be quite difficult controlling someone and stopping them from hitting you in Chi Sau range , it takes many , many years of proper Chi Sau training under a genuine Master before the techniques become "hard wired" into the nervous system.
Ill find some videos if you like, but the fact that theres no blocking involved is exactly my point. Unless thats what you were saying.
Here:
Also, if im not mistaken Bas Rutten first trained TKD growing up, shortly after getting over a skin condition. Hes a good man.
Edit: My first sentence is word jelly. So more detail! You posted a video that demonstrated the lack of blocking by a skilled karateka in a system which uses blocks. I reinforced your standpoint. Im unsure if you know thats what i was doing, so i answered in such a way that worked for both possibilities
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Incidentally, in a tight space, outward moving blocks dont work so good against hooks/haymakers if they cant generate any force - Proper (Take that with a pinch of salt, but i can back it up) haymakers are thrown from headbutting range. Blocking dont work so good from there unless you can grab or shove something. If you see it coming. If the persons bigger and stronger, multiply the effect.
Edit: I seem to be forgetting to explain why i say stuff today. Anyway - My reason in saying that is because the best solution is to move your head, in that situation. Perhaps towards them.
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Bas is TKD and he is a no BS martial artist.Ill find some videos if you like, but the fact that theres no blocking involved is exactly my point. Unless thats what you were saying.
Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. The only thing is, I was trying to showcase fighters who trained primarily in karate or TKD because you would think that if they trained 'blocks' they would use blocks and the fact is they don't.
That should stimulate the grey matter but the truth is we have to look at the way we have trained for many years. Some people are so set in their ways they won't look at other possibilities. And, even that is not a problem. Everyone is free to train exactly as they choose.
Here:
Also, if im not mistaken Bas Rutten first trained TKD growing up, shortly after getting over a skin condition. Hes a good man.
Edit: My first sentence is word jelly. So more detail! You posted a video that demonstrated the lack of blocking by a skilled karateka in a system which uses blocks. I reinforced your standpoint. Im unsure if you know thats what i was doing, so i answered in such a way that worked for both possibilities
Here is one of his fights
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oaktree
Master of Arts
In bagua zhang we prefer evasion over blocking.
Blocking symbolizes stop movement. In bagua zhang
We deal with constant movement and change. We do not block
We evade, parry,redirect anything that keeps moving and change
Blocking symbolizes stop movement. In bagua zhang
We deal with constant movement and change. We do not block
We evade, parry,redirect anything that keeps moving and change
Mook, I thank you for your insight. Although I train and teach a type of Chi Sau it is very basic (I call mine Tegumi so that there is no confusion with the real thing but it is unashamedly stolen from WC.). But in practice it works beautifully in a close karate setting. I think what people don't understand that you don't stand round doing Chi Sau for five minutes. You meet and absorb an attack, redirect their energy and hit them. It is over in a second. :asian:
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
There was no TKD or Karate shown in that video it was MMA that's why there was not a block in sight.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
The blocking was not superior or inferior it was just different, it was good though, the practitioner shown there are quite good. When I am in that range with my opponent I try to incorporate sticky hands (yes I know the term for Chi Sau) kinds of movements, I find Wing Chun to be one of the better styles of Kung Fu. In sparring or self defence I try not to let my opponent get that close, they would have to have gotten past 2 or 3 lines of defence.
That was the format of competition, yes. But Machida is a karate guy. Who uses karate in the MMA format of competition.
To showcase this, here, have some videos of karate sparring instead.
Blocking can also make it easy for someone to grab your blocking limb.
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celtic_crippler
Senior Master
So there seems to be some difference in how a "block" is defined...okay, now I'm getting a clearer picture.
Well, if your definition involves just stopping the strike, what's the argument against using a "block" vs a haymaker? Several examples are available on youtube of untrained individuals fighting in the street and throwing nothing but haymakers.
Well, if your definition involves just stopping the strike, what's the argument against using a "block" vs a haymaker? Several examples are available on youtube of untrained individuals fighting in the street and throwing nothing but haymakers.
There is none, albeit a few things:
1; It depends on the haymaker. A haymaker thrown with a nearly locked out arm at long range? The person deserves it. A haymaker from headbutt range? Try it with a partner whos willing to hit you if you dont block them.
2; Haymakers actually work, and they can be thrown in rapid succession very quickly. Some fighters use them professionally. Google Zambidis. This relates back to point 1.
3; Fights arent static. If someone rushes at you throwing haymakers, they wont throw the first one unless its close enough to hit, unless theyre really silly. The chances of you outright stopping their momentum arent too good, so chances are, just like alot of videos of untrained individuals, youll end up tangled up rolling around on the ground trying to hit each other because you didnt move. Optionally, you can move toward them and take advantage of that fact.
4; Much like how a haymaker can be blocked outward, a straight can be blocked inward. If it were that easy, straight punches would have an even lower reputation than haymakers because you could physically cross the persons arms over each other if they tried to use them in fast succession. With haymakers, you block one, and the only way to stop them repeating the strike whilst they throw their other hand is to stand there with both your hands up on their forearms. If you try and immediately counter with your right hand, if they use their left hand, itll go straight over the top of your arm and hit you alot harder than your shorter faster strike, particularly if theyre used to and dont care about being hit.
I dont take issue to blocking, i take issue to relying on it for anything more than the first strike, assuming you can identify the strike and react before its in front of your face, since you wont always know its coming, and thats assuming its coming from in front of you. After that, attempting to block is more likely to get you hit than just moving your physical mass does. Blocking is also largely a static practice. If you can block a right haymaker with your left hand, couldnt you have punched them in the face with your left hand, then gotten to work using your superior fitness to barrage them back as hard as they were about to try and barrage you back? Yes. Of course. Blocking works too, but what about the second haymaker? And the third? And what about when they end up with their arms wrapped around you, or you run out of room to backpedal (which you will be, unless you want them too close to possibly block, or close enough to wrap their arms around you), or they get annoyed and try to kick you or headbutt you instead? It all works. But some things happen to be more reliable than others. Giving them the chance to build up momentum cant possibly be a good thing.
And i really hope noone has a fantasy of squaring up and thwating all of someones strikes with skillful blocking until they give up and leave.
To demonstrate this, imagine yourself as the attacker instead of as the defender, then tell me how youd make a haymaker work. When youre done, think about the fact that the other guy could have thought about that as well, and come to similar conclusions. Even better if you have a partner to experiment with.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
Relatively speaking hay makers are among the easiest punches to block, they are slow and easy to spot as you can see the whole arm long before it gets anywhere near you. If you block to the outside there is not much physical effort required. If you do not block or move out of the way they can still hurt you though. My instructor was attacked by a guy once who threw a haymaker, he just blocked it and punched him back once and it was all over. To him the guys punch felt like it was in slow motion because he was used to punches coming at him from trained martial artists nice and fast in free sparring. Another option is to just kick the guy before he gets close to you.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
LOL... I'm a kenpo-guy, we hit each other all the time. But in all seriousness, a haymaker at such close range could be ignored as the apex of the swing would occur well past the intended target.
Granted. There's a lot of momentum generated with a haymaker and if you connect with one it's gonna hurt. I personally don't use them because they're way too easy to telegraph.
Real fights are dynamic, agreed. And I have been personally been rushed with them and not only was the first one out of range, so was the second. LOL It was quite silly. I can only imagine what it looked like from a 3rd person perspective.
A block vs a hamaker coupled with a shoulder check goes a long way to separating a shoulder. Especially if the attacker really is intent on taking your head off.
I think we may also define "haymakers" differently. What a trained fighter would throw would be what I would call a "cross". Or maybe you call an overhand punch a haymaker? I'm not certain, but what I call a "haymaker" we sometimes refer to as the "Budweiser Punch" down in the Dirty South. LOL
Personally, I prefer parries for straight punches. Again, as I posted originally, it depends on the scenario as to what weapons one uses for defense. That being said, an inward block can be quite effective in creating the circumstances you state above against a push and cross the attackers arms cancelling them and creating an angle of disturbance.
I agree that relying soley on traditional blocks is a flawed strategy. You need to have many tools in your tool box because you never know what the job will call for.
There is no one way to be attacked and no one way to defend yourself. We live in a three dimensional world where every individual is different. No two people will throw a haymaker the same way for example. While learning, there are times where you have to break the material down and train in a static envirnment in order to ingrain the technical side of things but I agree that once understood you've gained an understanding what you've learned should be applied in a more dynamic training environment. I encourage everyone to keep an open mind and explore all avenues of defense for themselves, take what they find useful, and discard the rest... I've heard that somewhere before. LOL
