Blocking vs. Evasion?

[chinto]

look blocks and evasions both have their place. you may block as an actual block to set up a hold or grapple or simply evade and counter or both. as far as holds, there are several that once set your are really in trouble at best. so, you try and make sure they do not get set. for every strike there is a block or evasion and for every lock or hold a counter.

 

[WaterGal]

This thread reminds me of the women's gold-medal Olympic sparring matches, which I was (re)watching last week. These ladies are so good at evasion that they didn't even bother keeping their hands up most of the time.

Personally, I think evasion > redirection > blocking > getting hit. If you block a strike, you're risking an injury to your arm or hand. That's better than an injury to your head/neck/ribs/kidneys, but avoiding the strike entirely would be preferable.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The evasion, redirection, and blocking are not the best solution. The best solution is to wrap your opponent's arms so he can't punch you any more.


http://imageshack.us/a/img444/5471/octopus.jpg

 

[K-man]

The evasion, redirection, and blocking are not the best solution. The best solution is to wrap your opponent's arms so he can't punch you any more.

http://imageshack.us/a/img444/5471/octopus.jpg

Not as silly as it first may seem or that the cartoon may suggest. But I would question whether clinching is the preferred option especially when there is considerable difference in weight or height. But in the scenario that you are bigger and stronger than your opponent, or even the same size, tying him up until you decide what you can may well be an option.

 

[Cyriacus]

Not as silly as it first may seem or that the cartoon may suggest. But I would question whether clinching is the preferred option especially when there is considerable difference in weight or height. But in the scenario that you are bigger and stronger than your opponent, or even the same size, tying him up until you decide what you can may well be an option.

Step 1: Wrap your arms around their arms
Step 2: Headbutt
Step 3: Repeat until satisfied

Hey, itll either work or it wont.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The evasion, redirection, and blocking are not the best solution. The best solution is to wrap your opponent's arms so he can't punch you any more.


http://imageshack.us/a/img444/5471/octopus.jpg

The octopus is lucky, he can wrap his arms (tentacles) around multiple opponents, human beings, not so much.

 

[GaryR]

And how do you choose between blocking and evading your opponent's strike?

Blocking/evading and striking/re-attacking should not be a two step process. Ideally one should be able to avoid an attack by one of several options, some acting in concert-while taking the balance of the other, and striking back at the same time you block and/or evade. I like to call this "counter offensive tactics".

One method is to connect, blend, and re-direct whilst re-attacking
Another is to evade without making contact and re-attack whilst evading
Another is to Jam / smash through the attack with an attack of your own (less desirable much of the time)
Plus, any combination of above.

Any "block" that is only a block, and involves a two-count/beat re-attack is far from optimal and should be avoided.

Hope that helps...

G

 

[K-man]

Blocking/evading and striking/re-attacking should not be a two step process. Ideally one should be able to avoid an attack by one of several options, some acting in concert-while taking the balance of the other, and striking back at the same time you block and/or evade. I like to call this "counter offensive tactics".

One method is to connect, blend, and re-direct whilst re-attacking
Another is to evade without making contact and re-attack whilst evading
Another is to Jam / smash through the attack with an attack of your own (less desirable much of the time)
Plus, any combination of above.

Any "block" that is only a block, and involves a two-count/beat re-attack is far from optimal and should be avoided.

Hope that helps...

G

Good to see you back Gary and we pretty much agree. However, this is an old thread. Telfer hasn't been around for three years.

The current discussion has evolved from RTKDCM's response to my post.

K-man

I am of the school that believes that 'blocks', as such have very little place in the martial arts. We will sometimes move in and jam but to actually block an attack signals the end of your opponent's first technique and the trigger to launch his next attack.
Now, evasion can mean two things. Firstly, we move off the line of attack as in ashi tsabaki. That gets us out of the firing line, especially if someone is charging us. The disadvantage is that our opponent mostly retains control of his centre and can easily redirect his attack. Secondly, as Seasoned pointed out is tai tsabaki where we intercept and redirect the opponent's attack, most often breaking his balance and creating the opportunity to strike or apply any other suitable technique.
The secret to all this is to go back to our basic 'blocks'. In Goju, almost without exception, they are two-handed. The first hand deflects the attack and the second hand is actually a strike. Unfortunately, very few instructors teach this application, prefering instead to teach the obvious application. My question to them is, "Would you ever use the blocks you teach in a bar or street situation?" The answer is inevitably "Well no ... but, ..... !!" The next question becomes, "Then why teach them at all if you wouldn't use them in real life?"

RTKDCMB

I was always taught blocking in any martial arts that I have done. I was also taught evasion, when I first heard that some martial arts do not teach blocking at all I was quite surprised, I mean why would you not block. Many arts such as Muay Thai and boxing et al get along quite well without doing much blocking but one thing I have noticed is that the fighters in these martial arts tend to get hit a lot so they rely on being able to take a hit. In a street self defence situation you cannot afford to get hit even once, there have been many one punch deaths in recent years. Evasion is much easier on your body than blocking but requires more time and energy and after the strike is evaded the opponents momentum and direction of movement remains largely unchanged. The great thing about blocking is that you can redirect the attack wherever you want it to go. A good block will not only redirect the attack but will also damage the attacking tool, even to the point of breaking the attacking arm. You can also strike at the same time as you block. The are some techniques however that you should only block as a last resort, such as a hooking kick or crescent kick and it is better to evade.


Would I ever use the blocks I teach in a bar or street situation? Most definitely YES, otherwise why learn and teach them.

So, your post pretty much sums up what I posted. :asian:

 

[Prostar]

Some years ago, (early to mid seventies) I was at a tournament in Baltimore. I was paired with Furman Marshall for the first bout. Every time I threw a kick he not only blocked it but blocked it with a snap of the forearm. By the end of the match my right leg was purple from my knee to toes. I did end up winning the match, using my worst technique, a left hand, over the top, reverse punch. I won the match but he beat me up. I learned so much from him in the span of those three minutes. A good punishing block took me out of the tournament.

 

[Cyriacus]

Some years ago, (early to mid seventies) I was at a tournament in Baltimore. I was paired with Furman Marshall for the first bout. Every time I threw a kick he not only blocked it but blocked it with a snap of the forearm. By the end of the match my right leg was purple from my knee to toes. I did end up winning the match, using my worst technique, a left hand, over the top, reverse punch. I won the match but he beat me up. I learned so much from him in the span of those three minutes. A good punishing block took me out of the tournament.

It doesnt sound like it did him much good, other than that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Step 1: Wrap your arms around their arms
Step 2: Headbutt
Step 3: Repeat until satisfied

Hey, itll either work or it wont.

At 2.10 - 2.13.

tying him up until you decide what you can may well be an option.

Clinching is to force a striker to play the grappling game.

http://imageshack.us/a/img859/982/deadlock.png

 

[K-man]

Clinching is to force a striker to play the grappling game.

In a MMA context perhaps. Boxers clinch to stop the blows while they catch breath. In a surprise attack situation (close), I can envisage grabbing hold any way I can until I can assess the situation. I don't want to necessarily grapple and I definitely don't want to go to the ground. I'm surviving the first few seconds of the attack before I can hopefully disengage and do whatever is necessary to get away. :asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

At 2.10 - 2.13.

But he wasnt close enough! He was holding him at arms reach

 

[Curlykarateka]

I personally think that both at the same time is always preferable. For example, my opponent punches at my head. I step around his outside whilst simultaneously performing a block (specifically jodan age uke for other karate practitioners) this places me in a position to strike at various targets ie: floating ribs, carotid arteries temples, base of the skull with relative impunity, particularly if trapped his near hand, so he can't strike me. his far hand will be a while away and he will have to shuffle and telegraph his actions to use it against me. However, I've only been training 6 years and am far from an expert

 

[K-man]

I personally think that both at the same time is always preferable. For example, my opponent punches at my head. I step around his outside whilst simultaneously performing a block (specifically jodan age uke for other karate practitioners) this places me in a position to strike at various targets ie: floating ribs, carotid arteries temples, base of the skull with relative impunity, particularly if trapped his near hand, so he can't strike me. his far hand will be a while away and he will have to shuffle and telegraph his actions to use it against me. However, I've only been training 6 years and am far from an expert

How far away is your opponent to enable you to move to the side and block with Jodan Uke? Do you know in advance what hand he is punching with? Is he performing a 'traditional' karate punch? At training the other night we tested this 'block' theory. I invited the guys to use any 'block' that they had been taught as a 'block' against an attack to the chest. (Chest was targeted rather than head for safety) The proviso was that the block had to be a proper block, as we have all been taught, not a deflection. I proceeded to throw three punches, from close (not sparring) range, most of which landed. On several occasions they got a hand in front of the punch but not one could 'block' the punch. The other two punches landed. Then we did it again in the way that we normally train, without blocks and almost no strikes got through. 'Uke' does not mean block. :asian:

 

[mook jong man]

If evasion at close range was a viable tactic , Wing Chun would already be using it.

 

[GaryR]

Good to see you back Gary and we pretty much agree. However, this is an old thread. Telfer hasn't been around for three years.

The current discussion has evolved from RTKDCM's response to my post.




So, your post pretty much sums up what I posted. :asian:

HA! Thanks for the welcome K-Man,

Guess I should read the thread more carefully before posting! Glad we agree.

You said "We will sometimes move in and jam but to actually block an attack signals the end of your opponent's first technique and the trigger to launch his next attack."

I definitely agree here. The more you can blend and re-attack without a hard-block type tactile signal to your opponent the better. Even untrained people can sense this and it becomes a tit-for-tat. I like to liken a fight to having your opponent sucked into a tornado, sucked in a spit out damaged/broken--or another analogy--fighting a ghost with a sledgehammer.

Best,

G

 

[K-man]

If evasion at close range was a viable tactic , Wing Chun would already be using it.

And seeing that karate comes from Kung fu, if 'blocks' were blocks, Wing Chun would be doing them too.