benefits/drawbacks of modern?
- Thread starter Enson
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Bujingodai
Black Belt
Glad I was a source of a smile for you.
Hey are there any RTMS folks on the east coast. There is a good indie summit going on in March.
Hey are there any RTMS folks on the east coast. There is a good indie summit going on in March.
M
MisterMike
Guest
Which summit is that? Any details? 
Bujingodai
Black Belt
There will be a summit for the independent systems in April in Pennsylvania. Good price too, all inclusive for food and training
For more details send me an email at bujingodai@yahoo.ca
For more details send me an email at bujingodai@yahoo.ca
Bujingodai
Black Belt
It would be cool to have them at summit.
there used to be a forum on the website but unforunately to many trolls got on and they shut it down. that would have been one way to track them down. some of them are at the college right now in training. they are in phase right now. i trained with them the other day. they were from all over the place.
peace
peace
heretic888
Senior Master
If you want.
You're welcome.
Ehhhhhh.... not entirely.
Ummmmm.... yeah they did, actually.
The Bansenshukai and Shoninki, both historical ninjutsu treatises dating to the 16th and 17th centuries, refer to the "art" practiced as shinobijutsu and its practitioners as shinobi no mono. The Shoninki even goes a little bit into distinguishing shinobi no mono from nusubito (thieves).
I don't know if Hatsumi-soke ever taught "pure ninjutsu", whatever that might mean. The most basic techniques of the Bujinkan, for example, the sanshin no kata and kihon happo, come from Gyokko ryu --- which by no means is a ninjutsu ryuha (unless somebody knows somethin' I don't).
And if you don't mind the fraudulent basis of your school being questioned. :uhyeah:
Well, laterz all.
Been waiting for someone to bring up this point. Basically, a major difference in traditional/classical and modern is the method used to teach the art.
In the Kans (i.e., Koden, kodo, etc), the Jujitsu and Judo schools, tradition is the main focus. You, as student, must go through the rigid structured training sequences. The sequences are very close to the sequences in the scrolls of the schools. As you go up in rank, you are taught more "complicated" techniques, throws, chokes etc. Don't really see a weapon til you're almost a blackbelt (takes years). Everyone (almost internationally) goes through the same scroll of throws, scroll of yawara.
In Kenjitsu, as another example, you basically are being taught the sword use of the samurai. Again, ancient "tradition." So, you're infused with what was allowed and not allowed in the Samurai traditions. Same in Karate, Archery etc. It takes a long time (years) to go from beginner to teacher and its all tradition without much regard to todays "efficiency."
Looking at Kenjitsu. DO NOT HOLD THAT SWORD IN YOUR LEFT HAND. Why? Tradition. Modern, when confronted with an identified Kenjitsuist, put the sword in your left hand and cut him twice. He just doesn't understand the new angles of attack. (Read all this in a book and on the web(smile). Or, cut the fingers on his grip. He will not put the sword in the other hand with the good fingers, he'll just drop the weapon and run. In Jujitsu/Judo, and in most other "traditional/classical" schools I've been involved, trained or worked out with, if you have a physical problem, it's hard for you as these schools traditionally, don't make room for the handicapped. Example, you have some type of damaged leg or knee and can't bend the knee. You then cannot go through the first scroll of Nage Waza. But, you can use the advanced throws where you are on one knee with the injured leg straight out. Sensei will not allow you use nor will he teach you the advanced throws BEFORE learning the firt scroll. In Kenjitsu, YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT HAND. Tradition dictates you go somewhere else. You will not be taught with everyone else.
Summary: Traditional/Classical Arts: Long, drawn out training similar to ancient. Modern. Deal with what works TODAY. Its kind of like basketball centers. Old School, you shoot the three, you set on the bench the rest of the game. Centers get rebounds, shoot hook shot up close, a pass the ball to the guards. New School, grab that rebound and go coast-to-coast or pull-up and shoot the three (Shaq).
Just my opinion from an extremely limited experience.
In the Kans (i.e., Koden, kodo, etc), the Jujitsu and Judo schools, tradition is the main focus. You, as student, must go through the rigid structured training sequences. The sequences are very close to the sequences in the scrolls of the schools. As you go up in rank, you are taught more "complicated" techniques, throws, chokes etc. Don't really see a weapon til you're almost a blackbelt (takes years). Everyone (almost internationally) goes through the same scroll of throws, scroll of yawara.
In Kenjitsu, as another example, you basically are being taught the sword use of the samurai. Again, ancient "tradition." So, you're infused with what was allowed and not allowed in the Samurai traditions. Same in Karate, Archery etc. It takes a long time (years) to go from beginner to teacher and its all tradition without much regard to todays "efficiency."
Looking at Kenjitsu. DO NOT HOLD THAT SWORD IN YOUR LEFT HAND. Why? Tradition. Modern, when confronted with an identified Kenjitsuist, put the sword in your left hand and cut him twice. He just doesn't understand the new angles of attack. (Read all this in a book and on the web(smile). Or, cut the fingers on his grip. He will not put the sword in the other hand with the good fingers, he'll just drop the weapon and run. In Jujitsu/Judo, and in most other "traditional/classical" schools I've been involved, trained or worked out with, if you have a physical problem, it's hard for you as these schools traditionally, don't make room for the handicapped. Example, you have some type of damaged leg or knee and can't bend the knee. You then cannot go through the first scroll of Nage Waza. But, you can use the advanced throws where you are on one knee with the injured leg straight out. Sensei will not allow you use nor will he teach you the advanced throws BEFORE learning the firt scroll. In Kenjitsu, YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT HAND. Tradition dictates you go somewhere else. You will not be taught with everyone else.
Summary: Traditional/Classical Arts: Long, drawn out training similar to ancient. Modern. Deal with what works TODAY. Its kind of like basketball centers. Old School, you shoot the three, you set on the bench the rest of the game. Centers get rebounds, shoot hook shot up close, a pass the ball to the guards. New School, grab that rebound and go coast-to-coast or pull-up and shoot the three (Shaq).
Just my opinion from an extremely limited experience.
sojobow said:
You obviously have no knowledge of the subject matter and are just trying to push your agenda at the sake of truth again.
In the Bujinkan dojos I train at, the focus is getting home at the end of the day alive and in one piece. If what you wrote were true, then how the heck can Hatumi have come out with a book on pistol fighting.
Again, a person with an agenda, no knowledge of the subject matter and who is quite willing to lie to push that agenda.
Quote:Don Roley said:
Originally Posted by sojobow
In the Kans (i.e., Koden, kodo, etc), the Jujitsu and Judo schools, tradition is the main focus.
For one with an agenda, no knowledge of the subject matter, I do know this:
Koden{Kan} and Kodo{Kan} are Jujitsu and Judo systems. If your focus in Bujinkan is getting home in one piece at the end of the day, just stay home period. Put the Sakki away and help me find the Hachi Tengu.
sojobow said:
They don't exist, never have. You really have no knowledge what so ever about the subject of traditional Japanese systems or the way things are done. Despite this, you must spend a few hours everyday posting stuff that has no value.
On the matter of how traditional "kan" training goes, you should at least try to experience some of the arts you use as examples. But that would mean you are actually interested in finding the truth. Who here thinks Sojobow is in this for the truth?
You're right, I have absolutely no knowledge of your "traditional Japanese systems." However, I do have years of experience in "Classical" Japanese systems as in the Kan's I named above. So, you can ellaborate all you want on your traditional systems, I'll deal with the Classical systems that I have first-hand experience in.Don Roley said:
Kizaru
Purple Belt
I didn't feel it was necessary to quote the whole post to make my point. In modern kenDO you do not hold the shinai with the left hand on top, or with only the left hand. Why? It's a sport. Taking a look at "traditional" kenjutsu, sometimes the left hand IS on top, and sometimes ONLY the left hand is used to hold the sword. Example- In Shinkage ryu Kenjutsu, in the second set of naiden (for lack of a better term "inner teaching") techniques entitled Ku Ka No Tachi (Sword Techniques in Nine Parts), in the very first technique, Hissho (Certain Victory) the "defender" changes from a right hand on top to a left hand on top grip before advancing on the opponent. Again in Shinkage ryu Kenjutsu, in the group of Gaiden (Outer Teaching, for lack of a better term) techniques known as Jokakusei Chudan JuYon Sei (Fortress Posture Mid Level 14 Techniques), in the 13th technique Jokakusei Jun Ura o Fusegi Harai , the technique is finished by cutting the opponent's foot off at the ankle with a single left handed stroke. There are more like this, but I'll save everyone the boredom and quit here. There are photos of these techniques in a book called "Shinkage ryu Sword Techniques Vol. 2" by Tadashige Watanabe.sojobow said:
In my opinion, it would be a misconception to believe that Japanese sword schools only put the right hand on top.
This next part is just conjecture I've come up with on my own. Where did this stereotype come from? I think it's because sport kendo is alot more popular than kenjutsu in Japan these days. When sport kendo was created, it was for anyone to play. Rules were created where the only target areas were the helmet, gauntlets and chest protector, the most heavily armored places on samurai armor. Kenjutsu targets on the other hand, aren't for scoring points, they're for getting around armor and/or incapacitating the opponent so they are unable to counterattack. In my opinion, the samurai probably created the rules in this way so if they ever crossed live blades with a non-samurai trained in sport kendo, that person would be at a disadvantage, instictively attacking the samurai's most heavily armored areas. But that's just my educated guess.:asian:
Kizaru said:
I can understand if someone would believe that if their knowledge of kenjutsu was pretty shallow. I myself can only think of three arts off the top of my head that switch from right to left hand forward. It can be pretty rare. And the skills are not taught at first. You need to get a base down before you start learning tricks and such like that. Most people would learn right on toip of left.
Which kind of ties into the theme of this thread. How many people that start their "modern" form of an art bother to stick around to go through the basics completely and then learn the semi-advanced stuff like putting the left hand forward? On the other hand (pun not intended) there are those who read or see somewhat advanced techniques like that and try to emulate them without a good deal of experience with the important basics.
Miyamoto Musashi started killing people when he was in his teens. Despite this, in his book he wrote that he only started to truely understand martial arts when he was about 50. Yagyu Muneyori wrote soemthign to the same effect. And the greatest samurai killer, Tsukuhara Bokuden, took his third musha shugyo where he actually started to teach when he was about that age.
So, how many creators of "modern" ninjutsu are within two decades of hitting that age when they promote themselves to master status? Three decades?
Something to think about in terms of the drawbacks of studying modern ninjutsu. And that is not even counting the chance that you may be studying with a fraud, or someone who learned from a fruad.
i think it boils down to faith! if you believe in you art... (i've said this before it think) and you believe that it is superior... then it is superior for you. the same goes with instructors. lets take the "amazing dux"Don Roley said:
; sensei said that dux is a much different person now than he was 20 years ago(for the worse). but, we know that dux has his followers that are loyal and think/believe what he teaches is superior. more power to them i say. does that still make him a fraud...? probably. does that make what he does right...? probably not! but his students are loyal to him and his "theories".re: sword. once again i will only speak what i know (if i have read it... i will state so), we train with both hands, two hands, one hand, reverse grip, whatever. i do agree that there should be a well founded practicioner in the basics before he goes on and starts claiming that he can teach you how to fight with the blade between your tabi!
so there you have it my opinion!that was a nice guess!:asian:
peace
heretic888
Senior Master
Congratulatons. You "know" something that any 9 year old with a high-speed internet connection could find out in 2 minutes.
In any event, you certainly don't seem to "know" the correct transliteration of jujutsu into English. Surprise, surprise.
heretic888
Senior Master
Enson:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=transliteration
Heh. Learn somethin' new everyday. :asian:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=transliteration
Heh. Learn somethin' new everyday. :asian:
