benefits/drawbacks of modern?

[Enson]

How long should have Robert Bussey stayed with the Bujinkan before splitting and naming his own style of Ninjutsu?

If studying an art is a life-long endeavor, can anyone be justified in leaving and forming their own?

What are the implications for people like Ed Parker, who uses the term Kenpo? Is he wrong too?

thank you. exactly my point. bruce lee, ralph severe, all the greats!

its jealousy and envy that are eating ninjutsu folk up. ninjutsu whether people like it or not is bigger than just japan and the people there. blame hayes, hollywood, bussey, tew, anyone you want. like hamburgers and chinese food. "global". its no more a secret art that you can only practice in the caves of japan. like karate, kung fu, etc. ninjutsu too has many branches. some now have become distorted and twisted but i think all arts have their bad apples. they're fun to look at and gawke at, but non they less they still exist.
peace

 

[heretic888]

How long should have Robert Bussey stayed with the Bujinkan before splitting and naming his own style of Ninjutsu?

Well, unless he was granted menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu Ninpo, then it would be disingenous to claim that what is being taught is "ninjutsu".

 

[heretic888]

its jealousy and envy that are eating ninjutsu folk up. ninjutsu whether people like it or not is bigger than just japan and the people there. blame hayes, hollywood, bussey, tew, anyone you want. like hamburgers and chinese food. "global". its no more a secret art that you can only practice in the caves of japan. like karate, kung fu, etc. ninjutsu too has many branches. some now have become distorted and twisted but i think all arts have their bad apples. they're fun to look at and gawke at, but non they less they still exist.

Gee, talk about misinterpretation....

 

[Bujingodai]

Bussey was ranked a Yondan, in the days when the training was pretty hard I would assume. Today a Yondan gives you Menkyo, sort of. As long as you have a Shidoshi over you, if I am not correct.
I have seen some of Busseys stuff, what exactly is wrong with it?
Higuchi who is now also a "reject" and everyone says knows nothing was going to be an ambassador of the Ninja arts as well, that was directly from a book I read quoted from Hatsumi.
Unfortunatly, credibility is an issue here. There are a dumpload of charlatains out there claiming to be Ninja masters. But also within the Kans, there is a lost control of quality. I have seen people with menkyo that move like yellow belts, in the Kan. I have met some amazing people too in the Kan. But that being said, being in the Kan does not mean you are learning anything better or more effective.
Some of the people that the internet warriors denounce I have met and trained with personally, their talents far exceeed many of their detractors.
Exponentially.
I find it funny (mind you I am not an authority on this either) that we argue about Japanese traditionalism and the art itself yet most of the Indies I meet are much more versed in Japanses culture than their American Kan counterparts. So becuase your particular lineage comes from Japan, and by the way isn't accepted by many Japanese authorities on the issue, does it make it more legit.
This is just my opinion, and I am a nobody. I am an ex kan, who is now in an indie org. Mostly due to the politics and back stabbing. I felt like a hypocrit staying there. Now I train with groups of the most amazing folks that get shot down all the time.
I would invite people to come see them sometime and detract them to their face. I don't mean that in violence, even in discussion.
Some are more flashy and colourful yes, no doubt. They have effective systems though. Devoted to their schools and their students, that is really what impresses me.
If anyone wishes to discuss the merits of a particular school, I have likely met them and trained with them, ask me.

There is my .2c Canadian funds

 

[heretic888]

Bussey was ranked a Yondan, in the days when the training was pretty hard I would assume. Today a Yondan gives you Menkyo, sort of.

Not at all. There is no rank that correlates to a menkyo kaidensha. The two are completely unrelated.

A yondan, among others, would be a shidoshi-ho. If I am not mistaken.

 

[Bujingodai]

Fair enough for the correction, but a shidoshi ho, is liscenced (menkyo) to teach under a shidoshi am I not correct. Or does Menkyo not mean a teaching liscence and Menkyo Kaiden not a full proficiecy cert so to speak. Sorry thats how it was explained to me by my Bujinkan Shidoshi

 

[heretic888]

Ah, methinks I misinterpreted your prior post. My apologies. :asian:

 

[Kizaru]

Fair enough for the correction, but a shidoshi ho, is liscenced (menkyo) to teach under a shidoshi am I not correct. Or does Menkyo not mean a teaching liscence and Menkyo Kaiden not a full proficiecy cert so to speak. Sorry thats how it was explained to me by my Bujinkan Shidoshi

"Menkyo" in Japanese means "License" in English. You can have an "Unten Menkyo" which is a "driver's license"...that's all that "menkyo" means. A kyu grade certificate is a "menkyo". A dan grade certificate is a "menkyo". "Menkyo Kaiden" is the name of a certificate in Japanese martial arts schools that signifies that training is "completed". It doesn't mean you stop training. To the best of my knowledge, in the Bujinkan, only a few Japanese shihan and one man from France have received "Menkyo Kaiden" in any of the Bujinkan arts. Usually a scroll or handwritten book with a description of the techniques and philosphies of the school is given along with a "Menkyo Kaiden". Sometimes though, in other Japanese arts, something hand made by the teacher, like a tsuba (sword guard) or a painting serves as a certificate of "menkyo kaiden" although I have never heard of this in the Bujinkan. :asian:

 

[Bujingodai]

Thank you for the clarification. Now I know.

 

[Don Roley]

Higuchi who is now also a "reject" and everyone says knows nothing was going to be an ambassador of the Ninja arts as well, that was directly from a book I read quoted from Hatsumi.

What book and what page number?

I do not trust your memory Dave. I have read all of the books by Hatsumi you could have and I do not remember seeing that tidbit. I have also asked about Higuchi in Japan. Trust me, no one I talked to here will vouch that he trained in Japan like he claims.

 

[MisterMike]

Well, unless he was granted menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu Ninpo, then it would be disingenous to claim that what is being taught is "ninjutsu".

I thought Menkyo Kaiden was specific to the Ryu? If so, that would invalidate Mr. Bussey from using the Togakure or Bujinkan names, but not necessarily Ninjutsu, correct? Isn't this where we get the "Modern" distinction?

Just asking. I do find all of this very interesting as it pertains to other styles as well.

 

[Kreth]

The point is, he never had a shidoshi (teaching) menkyo, much less menkyo kaiden. The claim on Bussey's website is false, period.

Jeff

 

[Enson]

The point is, he never had a shidoshi (teaching) menkyo, much less menkyo kaiden. The claim on Bussey's website is false, period.

Jeff

so no one should learn from him then? thats it i'm gonna write him right now! if hatsumi doesn't approve (although he did back in the day) then i personally am going to write all the students to cease and desist! :rofl:

the fact is he still teaches effective ninjutsu and his students are top notch in my book. does it really matter that he really didn't finish conforming to hatsumi?
i refer back to this:

I have absolutely no regret, because I would simply have helped spread an ancient art filled with illusions, sterile philosophies, and limitations".

peace

 

[MisterMike]

The point is, he never had a shidoshi (teaching) menkyo, much less menkyo kaiden. The claim on Bussey's website is false, period.

Jeff

Perhaps his claim of a "teaching license" is debateable, but the real point is "when can you use the term Ninjutsu to describe your own style?" OR Karate, or Ju Jutsu?

Is "Modern Ninjutsu" a correct term then? Does Hatsumi not teach a modern style of his own interpretation along with the traditional?

While the roots run long and deep for some ryu, does this not allow for new ones?

Bussey's claims are what most are stuck on, rather than accepting people with valid training who pioneer their styles. (I personally would not follow somone who openly lies.)

There were 50+ Koga ryu. Did they all spontaneously emerge or did they have to ask permission from a particular source before teaching? It's my understanding Menkyo Kaiden was not around since the first days either.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Enson]

Is "Modern Ninjutsu" a correct term then? Does Hatsumi not teach a modern style of his own interpretation along with the traditional?

While the roots run long and deep for some ryu, does this not allow for new ones?
Just some thoughts.

traditionalist claim that hatsumi is teaching a modern version of what he taught back then (refer back to skh thread). now if thats the case then only a handful can really claim to be traditional like hayes, bussey, novan, etc. the rest have learned a modern version of what was taught back then.

imo ninjutsu does allow for new systems to develope. like i stated before some will be twisted and distorted. some will come from disgruntled practicioners, and some will take the concepts and develope new ones. i believe whatever it is they should be honest and up front not claiming to learn ninjutsu in a dream or other nonsense.
peace

 

[heretic888]

I thought Menkyo Kaiden was specific to the Ryu? If so, that would invalidate Mr. Bussey from using the Togakure or Bujinkan names, but not necessarily Ninjutsu, correct? Isn't this where we get the "Modern" distinction?

Yes, Menkyo Kaiden is specific to individual ryuha.

The shidoshi-ho and shidoshi licenses, however, refer to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as a whole. You can teach the Bujinkan method without necessarily making menkyo kaiden in any of the ryuha.

Seeing as how Togakure ryu is currently the only publicly-taught legitimate ninjutsu ryuha (although other ryuha, like Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu and Kukishin ryu contain some ninjutsu in their teachings, I believe), it is very disingenuous to pass off anything else as "ninjutsu" in and of itself. Ninpo, however, is another animal altogether...

The "modern" distinction, I would say, comes from people that misuse or misunderstand the term "ninjutsu" altogether. There are currently only three actual ninjutsu ryuha, only one of which has been publicly taught (to my knowledge, anyway). Not everything done in the Takamatsu-den is "ninjutsu".

But, hey, that's all just my opinion. :asian:

so no one should learn from him then? thats it i'm gonna write him right now! if hatsumi doesn't approve (although he did back in the day) then i personally am going to write all the students to cease and desist!

Gee. Way to misinterpret what's actually being said.

At no point did any of us say you shouldn't learn under Bussey. We are simply questioning his claims (which, to be frank, are bunk).

I refer back to this:
Quote:
I have absolutely no regret, because I would simply have helped spread an ancient art filled with illusions, sterile philosophies, and limitations".
n

Apparently, his definition of "limited", "illusory", and "sterile" is "non-Christian". Which, really, is what this all comes back to.

Perhaps his claim of a "teaching license" is debateable, but the real point is "when can you use the term Ninjutsu to describe your own style?" OR Karate, or Ju Jutsu?

Well, one would at least expect it to have some kind of connection to the schools that teach those arts --- and not just a hybrid American style a 20-something cooked up.

Is "Modern Ninjutsu" a correct term then? Does Hatsumi not teach a modern style of his own interpretation along with the traditional?

It is my understanding that the kata change. The principles do not.

And, again, the only "ninjutsu" being taught is from Togakure ryu (and possibly parts of Kukishin ryu, I dunno).

There were 50+ Koga ryu. Did they all spontaneously emerge or did they have to ask permission from a particular source before teaching? It's my understanding Menkyo Kaiden was not around since the first days either.

To be honest, the terms "shinobi no mono" and "shinobijutsu" was probably applied to these groups by outside sources. Its not likely they originally refered to themselves as such. But, I guess the names stuck.

traditionalist claim that hatsumi is teaching a modern version of what he taught back then (refer back to skh thread). now if thats the case then only a handful can really claim to be traditional like hayes, bussey, novan, etc. the rest have learned a modern version of what was taught back then.

If by "modern" you actually mean "continually evolving, developing, and adapting", then sure.

Laterz all.

 

[Enson]

If by "modern" you actually mean "continually evolving, developing, and adapting", then sure.

Laterz all.

and totally effective, awesome in real combat, etc., etc. way to promote your style eh?

peace

 

[Kreth]

Gee. Way to misinterpret what's actually being said.

At no point did any of us say you shouldn't learn under Bussey. We are simply questioning his claims (which, to be frank, are bunk).

At least someone is reading what I posted without trying to put a spin on it. Bussey is not licensed to teach any of the Bujinkan schools. If you like what he's doing, great. Personally, I think his stuff relies way too much on speed and power and won't work unless you're both stronger and faster than your opponent.

Jeff

 

[Fool Wolf]

It seems to me that the term "Ninjutsu" is soley a marketing ploy. The actual historic ninja didn't call themselves ninja or their art ninjutsu. Hatsumi doesn't even teach ninjutsu in its pure form anymore. IMO there is nothing wrong with using the term ninjutsu to describe your art if you want to stree the stereotypical qualities that are attributed to that word.

FW

 

[Bujingodai]

I am of course obviously biased on the topic, as some are on the other

Don, I will bring the book into my office and scan the quote. I only saw it last week and could be a little off but not that off.
But regardless I will bring it in.
I mean that doesn't mean the author of the book isn't quoting out of his butt either but it looked interesting. Not his butt...the book.