benefits/drawbacks of modern?

[Shizen Shigoku]

I touched on this subject in the general section under Traditional/Neo:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=287198#post287198

As for the transliteration issue:

ninjutsu = ninjitsu only if you are using two different romanization systems. If you are being consistent, and if you are using the most commonly accepted way of transliterating Japanese, then they are vastly different.

nin = shinobi = 忍　= endurance, patience, stealth
jutsu = 術 = art or set of techniques
jitsu =　実 = truth; reality

That's why I think it's so funny (because of the irony if you follow me) that some of these modern/neo (read: non-authentic) styles call themselves ninjitsu. If you don't get the joke, I'm sorry.

I'm not even going to discuss effectiveness, or believing your art is superior on faith. I guess to the practicioner, those things would be benefits.

But the drawback remains, as heretic plainly stated - repeatedly (without being argumentative) that arts that were not created in Japan that have Japanese names (especially when they spell them incorrectly) are misleading.

For everything else I feel about this, please refer to the post I referenced above.

Thanks for your patience and understanding,

S.S.

 

[Enson]

shizen,

alot of your post is mostley biased by the art you study. that is okay. i personally (as i have mentioned before) consider ninjutsu as a concept. a way of fighting/living etc. that is what most of us modern schools believe.

in rtms we consider what we do ninjutsu concepts and not anything like traditional. we have integrated many techniques in our school that work for us. others we don't. if you want to call it "mixed"... okay.

there are actually students that come in from other schools that help give a different spin on things. they use what they have learned and put a ninjutsu twist on it to make it, in their own words, "more effective". i have never studied anything outside of rtms. what i have learned has been strictly under the instruction of sensei or instructors. we believe that tew ryu should be something that comes from within. each and every student will have their own way of doing a technique and none should be identical. we don't make clone warriors but total warriors... if you get my joke. what works for you... well use it. where ever you have holes we help fill in.

its hard to explain all in one post but i hope you get the difference now between the two sides. good info posted from you though. keep it up.

peace

 

[heretic888]

alot of your post is mostley biased by the art you study. that is okay.

No, its "biased" from an actual understanding and knowledge of the Japanese language. Last time I checked, both 'nin', 'jutsu', and 'jitsu' are Japanese words and concepts.

This is not a matter of "well, your art says this and mine says this". Its a matter of plagiarizing a Japanese term for recognition from the public.

i personally (as i have mentioned before) consider ninjutsu as a concept. a way of fighting/living etc. that is what most of us modern schools believe.

The only underlying "way" I have seen to unite any of the modern groups together is that the concept of ninjutsu is "any martial art you decide to call by the name 'ninjutsu'". I can consider kenjutsu a "concept", and decide to call my polka dancing school a "kenjutsu school" --- dudn't make it so, bucky.

*chuckle* Laterz.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Enson: "shizen, alot of your post is mostley biased by the art you study."

How do you figure? What have I said that is not objective fact?


"i personally (as i have mentioned before) consider ninjutsu as a concept. a way of fighting/living etc. that is what most of us modern schools believe."

I understand that. I have no problem with another art being influenced/inspired by ninjutsu, heck, I don't even really mind that much if they call what they do ninjutsu (if McDonalds can call what they serve, "hamburgers," then why not?).

However, the fact remains, that ninjutsu is a Japanese art with a specific definition. It is made up of many concepts that are common to many martial arts. Saying that your art is influenced or inspired by ninjutsu is fine. Calling it "ninjutsu" when it isn't is misleading . . . but really not that big of a deal.

For example, "Tew's Martial Science" - that's a wonderful American name for an American art. It is accurate and descriptive. Now under that title, one could say "We teach x, y, and z, and arts / strategies inspired by and influenced by ninjutsu." If more modern styles did that. No one would have a problem. "Tew Ryu Ninjutsu (or Ninjitsu - I forget how they spell it)" Just sounds silly.

But then again, the American language is completely derived from words stolen from other languages, so whatever.

heretic888: "Its a matter of plagiarizing a Japanese term for recognition from the public."

It's not exactly plagiarism, but it is similar. It's like if I made a hamburger with one bun, folded it in half, and called it a taco. It'd be like, "well, it kinda looks like a taco, but that's not the way they make them in Mexico."

Enson: "in rtms we consider what we do ninjutsu concepts and not anything like traditional. we have integrated many techniques in our school that work for us. others we don't. if you want to call it "mixed"... okay."

I totally respect RTMS. I think it is a really cool martial arts system. They don't mislead people as much as some neo-ninja schools that just flat out lie and say they are teaching ancient ninjutsu arts passed down through secret masters and other silly stuff like that.

heretic888: "I can consider kenjutsu a 'concept', and decide to call my polka dancing school a '"kenjutsu school'"

You have a polka school? That's awesome!

Enson: "there are actually students that come in from other schools that help give a different spin on things. they use what they have learned and put a ninjutsu twist on it to make it, in their own words, "more effective". i have never studied anything outside of rtms. what i have learned has been strictly under the instruction of sensei or instructors. we believe that tew ryu should be something that comes from within. each and every student will have their own way of doing a technique and none should be identical. we don't make clone warriors but total warriors... if you get my joke. what works for you... well use it. where ever you have holes we help fill in."

That's beautiful - and guess what? It's the same in the Buj'. We don't try to create clones, everyone adapts the art to fit themselves, not the other way around. When others come in from other styles, we examine their techniques and strategies and try to incorporate them into our taijutsu. What often happens though, is that after enough testing, we find that those other techniques and strategies don't do anything to improve what we already do - even with "a ninjutsu twist on it" - so we tend to make note of it and move on.

"its hard to explain all in one post but i hope you get the difference now between the two sides."

I understand. I'm just trying to help people realize why so many traditional artists have problems/confusion with some modern styles - and that it does not come from bias; it comes from an educated knowledge of the facts.



Have fun and be safe, and keep training!

 

[sojobow]

But then again, the American language is completely derived from words stolen from other languages, so whatever.........Have fun and be safe, and keep training!

BINGO. Why most of us don't understand this point is the cause of all this cyber-screaming. It's like the French jumping on Americans for using the term "bouldvard" in a street-name like Tokyo Boulevard. In the West, Ninjutsu means something altogether different than Ninjutsu in Japanese.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

That doesn't make it any more correct.

 

[Enson]

For example, "Tew's Martial Science" - that's a wonderful American name for an American art. It is accurate and descriptive. Now under that title, one could say "We teach x, y, and z, and arts / strategies inspired by and influenced by ninjutsu." If more modern styles did that. No one would have a problem. "Tew Ryu Ninjutsu (or Ninjitsu - I forget how they spell it)" Just sounds silly.!

this is just to expound on that:

rick tew's martial science or rtms is the name of the school/style. it is a combination of ninjutsu, tkd, kickboxing, and other arts. not subjecting itself under the rules of these arts (i.e. using a "ninja punch" or "tkd kick"), it sets itself apart by not having any rules and using what works to survive another day.

because of the overall ninjutsu influence and application of ninjutsu concepts it is also called (historically/presently) tew ryu ninjutsu or tew ryu ninjitsu (for those that don't care about kanji or benji or any transliteration). rtms does not claim to teach ninjutsu as it is taught in japan, but teach an american modern version of it. for that reason we do not affiliate with any japanese ryu, but only stick with our ryu started by sensei.

peace

 

[heretic888]

BINGO. Why most of us don't understand this point is the cause of all this cyber-screaming. It's like the French jumping on Americans for using the term "bouldvard" in a street-name like Tokyo Boulevard. In the West, Ninjutsu means something altogether different than Ninjutsu in Japanese.

I'm afraid that is a rather weak analogy, actually.

In both France and the United States, "boulevard" refers to a street or road. It doesn't "mean something different" in those respective countries; its just a term the Americans adopted as an alternate name for "street" or "road".

The same cannot be said of "ninjutsu". "Ninjutsu" means something quite different in Japan than it does among most of the neo-groups in America.

In Japan, "ninjutsu" has more to do with things like philosophy, tactics, strategy, 'truth and falsehood', stealing-in methods, nightfighting, hit-and-run scatter tactics, silent infiltration, espionage, and so forth... that is ninjutsu. This is why, in the Bujinkan, only three of the ryuha are correctly referred to as "ninjutsu" (with only Togakure ryu actually being publicly taught, from what I've heard).

I've also been told that ninjutsu, per se, is far more conceptual and tactical in nature than most other ryuha....

This is a major distinction that most of the neo-groups, including the Tew ryu folks, usually fail to grasp. "Ninjutsu" cannot really be said to honestly apply to in-depth teachings of hand-to-hand combat or battlefield weaponry; it may "polish off" or "add to" a prior training in those subjects, but it would be quite odd to see a ninjutsu ryuha teaching them in-depth itself.

As I said before, a lot of the confusion here is that the neo-groups don't actually seem to know that ninjutsu is in the first place, but then retroactively apply the term to their art(s). This doesn't stem from a different "cultural understanding", it stems from ignorance.

Of course, there's ninpo, too. But, that's another subject altogether... :asian:

 

[Enson]

This is a major distinction that most of the neo-groups, including the Tew ryu folks, usually fail to grasp. "Ninjutsu" cannot really be said to honestly apply to in-depth teachings of hand-to-hand combat or battlefield weaponry; it may "polish off" or "add to" a prior training in those subjects, but it would be quite odd to see a ninjutsu ryuha teaching them in-depth itself.:asian:

its fun to see you comment on systems and styles that you have limited knowledge of. rtms does not represent the neo groups in their enterity... just a small portion of it.
what is taught in rtms is just that... what is taught. we do not say that we are right for everyone else... just what we do.
peace

 

[Kizaru]

For example, "Tew's Martial Science" - that's a wonderful American name for an American art. It is accurate and descriptive. Now under that title, one could say "We teach x, y, and z, and arts / strategies inspired by and influenced by ninjutsu." If more modern styles did that....
It's not exactly plagiarism, but it is similar. It's like if I made a hamburger with one bun, folded it in half, and called it a taco. It'd be like, "well, it kinda looks like a taco, but that's not the way they make them in Mexico."

I couldn't agree with you more. Someone pass me a taco...

 

[heretic888]

its fun to see you comment on systems and styles that you have limited knowledge of. rtms does not represent the neo groups in their enterity... just a small portion of it.
what is taught in rtms is just that... what is taught. we do not say that we are right for everyone else... just what we do.

Yup, it was a generalization. Unfortunately, it was an accurate one.

What characterizes a lot of the "neo groups" is that they use the term ninjutsu (or ninjitsu) to refer to fairly conventional and straightforward combat methods. Very little, if any, of the "ninjutsu" that is generally taught is geared toward things like guerilla warfare, infiltration, sabotage, nightfighting, and so forth --- most of it is "modern" self-defense, and rightly so (given out current cultural climate).

In all likelihood, a lot of this "ninjutsu = everything" mentality comes from the '80's, when the entire corpus of what was taught in the Bujinkan was referred to as "ninjutsu", and shortly after that to "ninpo taijutsu". There's a reason that's no longer the case.

Laterz.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Then there's good ol' Ronald "Way of the Winds" Duncan. I didn't know there were any systems of "shinobi-no-jitsu" with predominantly aiki-based unarmed techniques...

 

[Don Roley]

rick tew's martial science or rtms is the name of the school/style. it is a combination of ninjutsu, tkd, kickboxing, and other arts.

Uh, how can it have ninjutsu in it? Where did Rick Tew learn ninjutsu?

Is he saying that he learned ninjutsu from Frank Dux? Dux claimed to have learned ninjutsu from a Japanese teacher, but no one of any intelligence believes him. The Frank Dux web site says that Tew and Dux are still on good terms, so is Tew claiming that he learned real Japanese ninjutsu from Dux?

Or is he saying that he learned it from Robert Bussey? Bussey trained in Bujinkan. Bujinkan has ninjutsu in it. But I see nothing that indicates that Bussey learned the fighting techniques of the Togakure ryu or anything else ninja specific. He certainly did not retain what he did and changed the contents as soon as he set up shop. He added things that run counter to the central principles of arts like the Togakure ryu. I have a tenth dan friend that started out in his schools before changing to Bujinkan and will vouch from personal experience that to get good in Bujinkan he had to forget much of wha the learned in Bussey's school. And Bussey eventually gave up even using the term ninjutsu about the time Ninja Magazine went out of business.

Let me take a step back here and explain that there are unarmed fighting techniques of ninjutsu in the Togakure ryu. They do have their own charecteristics. If you look at what the ninja did and what they needed, then these techniques (called the tonsogata) fill the need. Just as the art used by Japanese police fill their need to restrain suspects, and the WWII combatives of Rex Applegate fill their need for simple, lethal moves for a soldier with limited time and no worry about excessive violence, the tonsogata fills the need the ninja would have faced. I do not agree that you need to learn things like running espinonage nets in order to study ninjutsu- but doing things like the tonsogata that is in line with what the ninja needed seems a bare minimum requirement.

So when I say that what Robert Bussey and Frank Dux do not teach ninjutsu as it is taught in Japan, I mean that they do things that the ninja of old would not have needed. So how can the claim be made that Rick Tew learned ninjutsu when neither of his teachers even seemed to have learned anything like the Tonsogata?

And I have always been quite clear that I see a wide difference in what Rick Tew does and what is called ninjutsu in Japan. I do not consider him a fraud like others I can say that about because I can point to no lie that I know he has made. AFAIK he has backed up all his claims of who he trained with, etc. But this forum was made for people like him who use the ninjutsu name, but have no real link to Japan and/or do things differently from Japan. I have no problem with that as long as we are clear. But again, how can the claim be made that Tew ryu incorperates ninjutu when Tew can't point to ever learning things like the tonsogata?

 

[heretic888]

Nice post, Don.

Just one lil' thing...

I do not agree that you need to learn things like running espinonage nets in order to study ninjutsu- but doing things like the tonsogata that is in line with what the ninja needed seems a bare minimum requirement.

Oops. That may have been a mischaracterization on my part. If so, I apologize. :asian:

I would agree, though, that to learn "ninjutsu" you really should be studying to handle the kind of situations that feudal-age spies, saboteurs, and guerillas would find themselves in (which, at the very least, would be stuff like the tonsogata that Don mentioned). So-called "modern American self-defense", while it may be very practical and appropriate for our day and age, cannot be construed as "ninjutsu".

In any event, the line I've been usually told regarding all this is that "ninjutsu" (a la Togakure ryu) is geared more towards "adding to", "topping off", or "going beyond" the bujutsu learned in previous school(s) (a la Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu) --- for example, adding heavy elements of kyojitsu tenkan ho (among other things). Thus, it would be odd to be claiming to learn "ninjutsu" in your very first lessons, IMO.

Well, that's how its been explained to me, anyway. Laterz. :asian:

 

[Enson]

Uh, how can it have ninjutsu in it? Where did Rick Tew learn ninjutsu?So when I say that what Robert Bussey and Frank Dux do not teach ninjutsu as it is taught in Japan, I mean that they do things that the ninja of old would not have needed. So how can the claim be made that Rick Tew learned ninjutsu when neither of his teachers even seemed to have learned anything like the Tonsogata?
?

that would be a great post, but unfortunatley its on the wrong side(modern). sensei doesn't claim to teach things as they are in japan... because well we are not in japan...
your post of having a friend that knows a guy, that knows a guy sounds like an urban legend, and has no merit without proof. if another of our favorites that also post on modern were to say such a thing he would be bashed for 3 pages.
i'm so glad that your requirements for what a ninjutsu pracitcioner should know is not the standard. you would have us all reading and writing japanese before we got any real training. a language that is not used at all in america...imo.
the claims he makes is because he feels he recieved legitimate ninjutsu training from bussey. if that sets wrong with you... shucks!
what dux claims with his connection to sensei is just that claims. tew left because of being disillusioned (sp?) by dux. sensei has said things re: dux that i care not to mention on a public forum.
oh yeah... good post!
peace

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

that would be a great post, but unfortunatley its on the wrong side(modern). sensei doesn't claim to teach things as they are in japan... because well we are not in japan...

Neither is most of the Bujinkan followers around the world.

i'm so glad that your requirements for what a ninjutsu pracitcioner should know is not the standard. you would have us all reading and writing japanese before we got any real training.

Actually, you need to perfect your taijutsu before you can begin to study ninjutsu in-depth.

 

[Enson]

Neither is most of the Bujinkan followers around the world.

not according to some.

Actually, you need to perfect your taijutsu before you can begin to study ninjutsu in-depth.

very informative... thanks.

peace

 

[heretic888]

that would be a great post, but unfortunatley its on the wrong side(modern). sensei doesn't claim to teach things as they are in japan... because well we are not in japan...

Which goes full circle to the point I made in my very first post on this thread --- that the "neo" groups tend to use a term to describe their art(s) in such a way that is misleading, contradictory, and confusing. That's a substantial drawback, IMO.

Using "ninjutsu" to refer to "modern self-defense" methods would basically be akin to calling shoot-fighting a form of Hwarang-do.

your post of having a friend that knows a guy, that knows a guy sounds like an urban legend, and has no merit without proof. if another of our favorites that also post on modern were to say such a thing he would be bashed for 3 pages.

Sounds to me like you're misconstruing what Don actually said, Enson.

I believe the point that he's trying to make is that, as far as "ninjutsu" is concerned, Frank Dux is a fraud and Robert Bussey never learned Togakure ryu in-depth.

The problem is that in the early 80's, the Bujinkan tended to refer to the entire corpus of what was taught as "ninjutsu" with everything tending to be referred to as Togakure ryu Ninjutsu by name (even though they may have come from other ryuha). Later, it was changed to "ninpo taijutsu". Now, it is called "budo taijutsu".

Bussey split from the Bujinkan at a time when everything was blanketed as "ninjutsu", which is a bit misleading. Thus, he probably took that label with him when he went on to teach others.

i'm so glad that your requirements for what a ninjutsu pracitcioner should know is not the standard.

Actually, what Don said is a pretty balanced and reasonable standard for "ninjutsu" if you are at all concerned with authenticity and accuracy, as opposed to the constant revising of definitions that are seen in the neo organizations.

you would have us all reading and writing japanese before we got any real training. a language that is not used at all in america...imo.

I don't recall anything at all about Don mentioning learning Japanese. IMO, this is projectionism on your part.

not according to some.

Uhhh.... care to give some names?? It would be interesting to know who it is that thinks the "majority" of Bujinkan members are in Japan...

Laterz.

 

[Don Roley]

that would be a great post, but unfortunatley its on the wrong side(modern). sensei doesn't claim to teach things as they are in japan... because well we are not in japan...

I was not talking about what he taught, I was talking about what he learned. More specifically, I was asking how he could say that he had incorperated ninjutsu when I cannot see how he has ever learned it. If he wants to call what he does ninjutsu, then that is fine. But to imply that he has ever learned the art seems a bit decietful. In other words, if he said that he took what he thought the ninja would do today and that is why he calls it ninjutsu, then that is honest. But to say that his Martial Science is comprised of ninjutsu is saying that he has learned ninjutsu.

your post of having a friend that knows a guy, that knows a guy sounds like an urban legend, and has no merit without proof.

You misunderstood. My friend was the one that trained with Bussey dojo. It was not a friend of my friend or anything like that. And he is not the only one to say that what Bussey does is not like anything done in the Bujinkan. Bussey himself has said that when he claimed to have "modernized/improved" it.

i'm so glad that your requirements for what a ninjutsu pracitcioner should know is not the standard. you would have us all reading and writing japanese before we got any real training. a language that is not used at all in america...imo.

Please don't get so defensive and start trying to imply I am saying things that I am not. I do think that since Japan was the birthplace of ninjutsu and the term is part of the Japanese language that it is only natural that it should conform to what is in Japan rather than just what anyone wants it to mean. You would not be keen on someone using the term "American cowboy" and yet not even trying to be anything close to what that term meant in America.

the claims he makes is because he feels he recieved legitimate ninjutsu training from bussey. if that sets wrong with you... shucks!

Again, please stop getting rather testy and defensive. Bussey has not used the term "ninjutsu" for a good decade or so. Check with his web site and you can barely find the term on it anymore. So, how can Tew feel that he learned ninjutsu from Bussey to make part of his martial science when Bussey does not set himself up as a ninjutsu teacher anymore? And even if he we grant that maybe Tew thought he was learning ninjutsu, the fact remains he could not from Bussey and he does not know the differences from Bussey style and Japanese ninjutsu.

what dux claims with his connection to sensei is just that claims. tew left because of being disillusioned (sp?) by dux. sensei has said things re: dux that i care not to mention on a public forum.

I do not find it hard to believe that Dux lied about a relationship like that. But I think it is unfair to say that you could say something bad about Dux that you heard from Tew, but refuse to give specifics. It is kind of what you tried to accuse me of by talking about a friend of a friend. If you do not like to give specifics, then it is unfair to make it clear that what was said is not good on a public forum.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

not according to some.

The Bujinkan has far more practitioners outside of Japan than inside. This is a fact.