Belt Rank Progress

[PhotonGuy]

I've been thinking, should belt advancement work the same way grade advancement works in school? It takes thirteen years to get through school, Kindergarten and then grades 1-12. From there you might go to college or you might start a career or whatever. The time t get through school is pretty much set and a student advances one grade per year. Occasionally there might be variations, a student might be slow or might be struggling and might be held back a grade or a student might be really academically talented or a whiz bang and might skip a grade but I would say over ninety percent of the time a student goes up one grade a year and finishes school in thirteen years. Should belt advancement work the same way? Perhaps most students should go up one belt every few months or whatever and it should take a standard X amount of time to make black belt which is pretty much the same for every student the same way graduating from school is pretty much the same amount of time for everybody.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I've been thinking, should belt advancement work the same way grade advancement works in school? It takes thirteen years to get through school, Kindergarten and then grades 1-12. From there you might go to college or you might start a career or whatever. The time t get through school is pretty much set and a student advances one grade per year. Occasionally there might be variations, a student might be slow or might be struggling and might be held back a grade or a student might be really academically talented or a whiz bang and might skip a grade but I would say over ninety percent of the time a student goes up one grade a year and finishes school in thirteen years. Should belt advancement work the same way? Perhaps most students should go up one belt every few months or whatever and it should take a standard X amount of time to make black belt which is pretty much the same for every student the same way graduating from school is pretty much the same amount of time for everybody.

No that would be a terrible idea. The problems with that would be that it would penalize the ones who were really good and reward the ones who were not and you would get a lower quality of black belt overall. There would be less incentive for the mediocre to raise their standards because they know they will get their black belt anyway. There have been some really dumb people who have graduated from high school. In schools there are a set curriculum and students start at the same time and learn exactly the same thing at exactly the same time and they are required by law to attend. In a martial arts school students join at different times in the teaching cycle (one student might learn a particular technique at yellow belt and another might not learn it until blue belt because that is what is being taught at the time). Some students train more often than others and some leave for a time and come back later so having the time for gaining black belt for everyone is just not practical. The two types of schools can't work the same way. A school that guarantees a black belt in a set amount of time shows a major sign of a M'cdojo/M'cdojang and that's not a good look.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've been thinking, should belt advancement work the same way grade advancement works in school? It takes thirteen years to get through school, Kindergarten and then grades 1-12. From there you might go to college or you might start a career or whatever. The time t get through school is pretty much set and a student advances one grade per year. Occasionally there might be variations, a student might be slow or might be struggling and might be held back a grade or a student might be really academically talented or a whiz bang and might skip a grade but I would say over ninety percent of the time a student goes up one grade a year and finishes school in thirteen years. Should belt advancement work the same way? Perhaps most students should go up one belt every few months or whatever and it should take a standard X amount of time to make black belt which is pretty much the same for every student the same way graduating from school is pretty much the same amount of time for everybody.

That's exactly how it works in your friendly neighborhood McDojo. As long as your check clears, you'll continue to advance at whatever rate is the norm for that place.

For myself I'll continue to advance, and to recommend advancement, based on performance.

 

[Cirdan]

I've been thinking, should belt advancement work the same way grade advancement works in school? It takes thirteen years to get through school, Kindergarten and then grades 1-12. From there you might go to college or you might start a career or whatever. The time t get through school is pretty much set and a student advances one grade per year. Occasionally there might be variations, a student might be slow or might be struggling and might be held back a grade or a student might be really academically talented or a whiz bang and might skip a grade but I would say over ninety percent of the time a student goes up one grade a year and finishes school in thirteen years. Should belt advancement work the same way? Perhaps most students should go up one belt every few months or whatever and it should take a standard X amount of time to make black belt which is pretty much the same for every student the same way graduating from school is pretty much the same amount of time for everybody.

Have you even noticed how low the percentage of students that stick with an art is? You won`t have 90% left after one year, 25% would be great. After nine years, let alone 13 you only got the really dedicated ones who made the art part of their lifestyle, probably under 1%. Those who still train are likely to be at different levels skill/rankwise.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Which raises the question of whether the students are applying to test based on their own feelings of readiness or if they have objective standards (study hours, knowledge of specific techniques, etc.) which they can can look at to know if they've met the requirements they need to meet in order to have a reasonable chance of success.

Which may actually be the case in this school. IMO, if we were going the route of letting them test based on their feelings, wouldn't it still be a good idea to at least have the inst check out the material prior to test date? Furthermore, I'd say if this was allowed, then technically the student could test every month and potentially pass. If its the latter, I'd think that a teacher would still be looking at them at some point to see if they were meeting those requirements.

What I was getting at is that the majority of responses are predicated on the impression that the former is exactly what is happening even though that has not been expressly stated by the OP.

The school has been equated with a McDojo in spite of no other detail being known other than that the students apply to test rather than test when sensei directs them to. The OP has not been forthcoming with this information, but at least one poster is familiar with the school and had very positive comments about it.

 

[lklawson]

If testing in high school included signing up myself, paying a fee and performing in front of a board with other students and a crowd watching and even filming the event, then I am sure my old high school teacher would have advised me not to test if he was sure I was going to fail.

Kinda like Defending a Doctoral Thesis?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

No that would be a terrible idea. The problems with that would be that it would penalize the ones who were really good and reward the ones who were not and you would get a lower quality of black belt overall.

In school the really talented kids get to go into special "Gifted" programs and/or skip grades.

There would be less incentive for the mediocre to raise their standards because they know they will get their black belt anyway.

In school the ones who flunk are held back a year (or are supposed to be, anyway).

There have been some really dumb people who have graduated from high school.

Mostly due to artificial and bureaucratic machinations which link federal funding to factory-like production figures for students and, occasionally, "fudging" tests scores in order to meet academic standards requirements for students who are great athletes but rather poor students.

In schools there are a set curriculum and students start at the same time and learn exactly the same thing at exactly the same time and they are required by law to attend.

By the time I got to High School, I had a great deal of flexibility in what classes I could take. Sure I had to take a "math" course but it could be general math or some more advanced course. I actually took Latin one semester in HS.

In a martial arts school students join at different times in the teaching cycle (one student might learn a particular technique at yellow belt and another might not learn it until blue belt because that is what is being taught at the time). Some students train more often than others and some leave for a time and come back later so having the time for gaining black belt for everyone is just not practical. The two types of schools can't work the same way.

Actually, I'm aware of some schools that insist that beginners all sign up to start at the same time. They enroll beginner students for classes that start on a given date and run through a given date. It's usually considered kind of a "taster track" sort of thing but the concept is easy enough to extend. Further, it's pretty darn common to have a "advanced student" session in many schools, following the general class.

A school that guarantees a black belt in a set amount of time shows a major sign of a M'cdojo/M'cdojang and that's not a good look.

Standard "public school" model which PhotonGuy is talking about isn't supposed to guarantee graduation either. That they, apparently, sometimes do, was one of your complaints right? They're not supposed to and they do. Does that make those people who graduated in such a way holders of a McDiploma? Maybe.

I'm not saying I'd like martial arts instruction and testing set up the way "public school" is. In fact, I'd probably hate it. I'm just saying that it's a valid method of instruction and testing and seems to produce results.

What we're all used to in more-or-less standard martial arts venues ain't the only way to skin the cat.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

That's exactly how it works in your friendly neighborhood McDojo. As long as your check clears, you'll continue to advance at whatever rate is the norm for that place.

That's not how "public school" is supposed to work either. Just showing up doesn't get it. You still are required to pass the grade or you're held back.

For myself I'll continue to advance, and to recommend advancement, based on performance.

Just like K12 school? <ducking>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Have you even noticed how low the percentage of students that stick with an art is? You won`t have 90% left after one year, 25% would be great. After nine years, let alone 13 you only got the really dedicated ones who made the art part of their lifestyle, probably under 1%. Those who still train are likely to be at different levels skill/rankwise.

That's an American culture thing. My friends tell me it's different in Japan (for instance).

And I know it was different in the Tudor period which I referred to up-thread. There it was 7 years between rankings at a minimum. 14 years before you were fit to be let off the apron strings. 21 or more years before you could even petition to test for Master.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's not how "public school" is supposed to work either. Just showing up doesn't get it. You still are required to pass the grade or you're held back.

Just like K12 school? <ducking>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I'm going to guess you've not had much contact with the current school system. No Child Left Behind, and all that. Just showing up does, in fact, seem to be enough.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The school has been equated with a McDojo in spite of no other detail being known other than that the students apply to test rather than test when sensei directs them to. The OP has not been forthcoming with this information, but at least one poster is familiar with the school and had very positive comments about it.

What haven't I been forthcoming about? I will try to be as informative as I can with whatever you want to know.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What haven't I been forthcoming about? I will try to be as informative as I can with whatever you want to know.

This wasn't an accusation. You've said that it is up to the student when they test, but you haven't said if there is some kind of objective basis (minimum number of study hours, knowledge of specific techniques, knowledge of specific kata, etc.) by which the students can gauge that they're actually ready.

 

[MJS]

That's exactly how it works in your friendly neighborhood McDojo. As long as your check clears, you'll continue to advance at whatever rate is the norm for that place.

For myself I'll continue to advance, and to recommend advancement, based on performance.

Agreed!! It's amazing how concerned with people are with the belts, almost as if getting a new belt is something magical. LOL! It's amazing how many times the following questions are asked by newbies: "How long does it take to get to black belt?" and "How long does it take to advance between belts?" I mean really...there's nothing more important than that? People tend to think that just because they learn something new and can 'do it' in 5min, that they know it. No, doesn't work that way. I've taught someone a tech, walked away and came back 10min later, asked them to show me, and it was horrible...yet they want to learn something else.

My current teacher does promotions on what you said in your last paragraph...performance...in addition to how many times you show up to class. Come to class 4 times a month, never improve with your material....you'll be at the same rank for a loooooooong time. Show up 3+ times a week, always strive to get better, put forth the effort to perform 110%, you'll advance. Now, my teacher is old school and has told me many times that his teachers never handed out rank and neither does he. Even though he has quarterly belt tests, it doesn't mean that you're going to test each time. Obviously as you advance, the time between belts goes up.

 

[RTKDCMB]

By the time I got to High School, I had a great deal of flexibility in what classes I could take. Sure I had to take a "math" course but it could be general math or some more advanced course. I actually took Latin one semester in HS.

But in primary school the curriculum is more set than flexible.

Actually, I'm aware of some schools that insist that beginners all sign up to start at the same time. They enroll beginner students for classes that start on a given date and run through a given date. It's usually considered kind of a "taster track" sort of thing but the concept is easy enough to extend. Further, it's pretty darn common to have a "advanced student" session in many schools, following the general class.

How often do these beginner programs run? If they run every 6 months and go for 6 months at a time then there would be some overlap between the ones who finished 6 months ago and those who finished a year ago so they may still learn different things at different times if they end up in the same class after the beginners programs. I should imagine they will lose a few potential students whou would not want to wait for the beginning of the next program so they go somewhere else.

 

[MJS]

What I was getting at is that the majority of responses are predicated on the impression that the former is exactly what is happening even though that has not been expressly stated by the OP.

The school has been equated with a McDojo in spite of no other detail being known other than that the students apply to test rather than test when sensei directs them to. The OP has not been forthcoming with this information, but at least one poster is familiar with the school and had very positive comments about it.

I might have missed the post in question. Of course, while nobody has to provide info, one would assume that if people had a certain impression of a place, and that impression wasn't correct, that the person(s) who are familiar with said school, would provide info to prove those impressions wrong.

For example...search any forum, or watch any clip on the Bujinkan, and you're be sure to find numerous comments saying the art is a joke, that it's not effective, it sucks, everyone LARPs, etc. So, odds are that when someone hears Bujinkan, they're automatically going to associate that art with being a joke. Yet there are many folks out there that are the complete opposite of what I said and are actually the real deal. But until the real deal folks are brought to light, the general assumption is going to be that the art is a joke.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes, but basing that impression on minimal information about how students apply to test is unwarranted. He did say that passing was by no means guaranteed, but that didn't seem to sway people.

The single biggest justification for calling it a McDojo is that it is a method that posters aren't accustomed to.

Having said that, I agree with you; if you're going to post about a testing practice, you should include important details so as to give a more accurate picture of what you're describing.

 

[lklawson]

I'm going to guess you've not had much contact with the current school system. No Child Left Behind, and all that. Just showing up does, in fact, seem to be enough.

Went through it myself and have two in right now.



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

But in primary school the curriculum is more set than flexible.

Yup.

How often do these beginner programs run?

Not really sure. Maybe every 6 weeks or so if I had to guess.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Yes, but basing that impression on minimal information about how students apply to test is unwarranted.

And very very human.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[MJS]

Yes, but basing that impression on minimal information about how students apply to test is unwarranted. He did say that passing was by no means guaranteed, but that didn't seem to sway people.

And yet in every day life, how many times do we see the same thing with events that happen in the world? Someone gets shot by a cop, it's the cop fault because he's a macho hot head who shoots first and asks questions later. Couldn't possibly be that perhaps the guy had a knife and lunged at the cop after repeated commands to drop the knife . Of course, like I said, what's the big secret? I mean, while nobody is required to post info, if it was posted, perhaps things would be different.

The single biggest justification for calling it a McDojo is that it is a method that posters aren't accustomed to.

I'm going to disagree a bit with this. Using myself as an example...I went from a Kenpo school, to a Kyokushin school. Both are martial arts, but the training is very different. My kyokushin dojo is far from a mcdojo, and yet when I joined 2yrs ago, I had to become accustomed to things. IMHO, a mcdojo tends to do things that the reasonable person would call suspect or questionable. Perhaps, so as to not sidetrack this thread, I should start a new thread on what people thinks make a mcdojo.

Having said that, I agree with you; if you're going to post about a testing practice, you should include important details so as to give a more accurate picture of what you're describing.