ata? Good, bad newbie needs help

[Daniel Sullivan]

True.

I just feel like the ATA exploits and abuses this ignorance. They know people will buy it, so why not sell it?

Why not indeed?

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that they exploit and abuse this ignorance though. I think that they did a very good job of figuring out their market.

Now, being a fully enclosed system that has a great deal of control over the individual schools, they are as an org, more directly responsible for their schools' problems, unlike the KKW which is essentially a certification entity. The complaints that people make about the KKW not policing their schools actually make more sense in the ATA, mainly because the ATA has a greater ability to do so.

Once again, I'll refrain from making any comments about the quality of schools or instructors, due to the fact that I've never trained in an ATA school.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

Now you're into a matter of matching product to customer.

Most taekwondo schools, regardless of org, are family oriented schools. As an org, the ATA has focused on this market.

Honestly though, how many perspective customers actually go to the ATA, WTF, ITF (aren't there like three different ones now?), Kukkiwon, or ITA websites? They go to "the local karate school" and whatever they've got, that's what the customers get. And if there's more than one school in the local area, they'll go visit them and see who's after school and summer camp program is the best. If all things are equal, they go where their kids friends are or to the place that looks the most professional. They don't know enough to ask the kinds of questions that you or I would.

As for people thinking that what the ATA offers is taekwondo, well... it is. Just as ITF and KKW are. Besides, the only people who will "look at these videos and think that THIS is TKD" are not informed enough to know what they're even looking at. You and I see technique and style specific things in these videos. The novice or beginner sees people in gis with belts jumping around doing karate. That is it. They know only that they can't do what is pictured.

Look, the ATA has a very comprehensive program, meaning that every aspect is codified, unlike the Kukkiwon that has a very basic program and says, 'round it out with whatever you feel like.' The ATA has built in BBC, leadership clubs, little ninja/dragon/tiger/munchkin programs, martial weapons, and optional XMA. Join the org, get the curriculum. If you sign up, get your BB and find that you want something a little more traditional or different, go on and branch out.

But their curriculum is their curriculum and you may not like it, but they aint dummies. Their curriculum is one that attracts people and keeps them happy through BB and brings the org good income. Organizations are in business to stay in business. Their formula works well for them. Not my cup of tea, but it is the cup of tea of thousands of kids all over the US.

It is their brand of taekwondo. It is their niche. ITF fills a different niche and the KKW fills a different niche. The independents and other smaller orgs also have their respective niches. The pie is plenty big. We can all eat at the same table.

Daniel

Again, I have to disagree here. Nowhere in the ATA literature does it say that it is marketed specifically for kids, or for anyone else in particular.

I still say that if the ATA wasn't ok with the quality of instruction, they wouldn't have their name on it.

If it's the individual school that's providing watered-down instruction, then shame on the instructors. If it's the organization as a whole that's promoting watered-down instruction, then shame on them.

The bottom line is that people need to know what they're getting into...not everyone is aware of what a martial art will look like that is designed for SD, and there have been quite a few people that I know that ranked up in ATA that genuinely thought that spending an hour class doing windmill punches would help them protect themselves. If the school is there to provide SD instruction, then the cirriculum needs to change. If it's not there to provide SD instruction, then it should be clear as to what it actually does offer.

 

[dancingalone]

In other news, I just read that the ATA now has weekly online classes for the Keysi Fighting Method. I dunno, this just seems like a money grab at this point. The little I know about KFM makes me think the core concepts in the system are 180 degrees opposite from taekwondo.

 

[BrandonLucas]

In other news, I just read that the ATA now has weekly online classes for the Keysi Fighting Method. I dunno, this just seems like a money grab at this point. The little I know about KFM makes me think the core concepts in the system are 180 degrees opposite from taekwondo.

This makes me laugh.

Weekly online classes??

What else are they going to start offering, phone consultation for Krav Maga?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Oh jeez. I saw an ad for this in Blackbelt magazine, touting it as "the fighting style of the Dark Knight." Its pretty bad when they can't even name a nonfictional person who actually practices the art. Needless to say, it was home video instruction. No, it wasn't ATA.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

Oh jeez. I saw an ad for this in Blackbelt magazine, touting it as "the fighting style of the Dark Knight." Its pretty bad when they can't even name a nonfictional person who actually practices the art. Needless to say, it was home video instruction. No, it wasn't ATA.

Daniel

And that pretty much drives my point home. The ATA is willing to charge for weekly online classes to teach a martial art that a movie made famous...and little else is known about it.

Seriously...it's all about the $$. They don't care about providing anything of quality, otherwise, they would, at the very, very least, conduct a seminar with a living, breathing, flesh and blood instructor who the students could ask questions. It's something else they can get a buck for, so that's what they're doing.

How am I supposed to be ok with this? Seriously? People are actually going to do this and think that they're getting something legit. I'm willing to bet that you could earn rank in Keysi this way....at least, through the ATA anyway...

/facepalm

 

[dancingalone]

Apparently, it's not an official ATA offering yet, but it's sold in one of the ATA top leader's schools, likely as a test product. They already DO have XMA and Krav Maga, so it's not an unlikely step to sell another system like KFM too.

I dunno. Something like what the ITA is doing with Hanmudo makes sense to me, considering the somewhat overlapping heritage TKD and hapkido have with one another. Grafting on Krav Maga or KFM into taekwondo just seems wrong to me. What's next, Wing Chun streamed to your digital cable box?

 

[BrandonLucas]

Apparently, it's not an official ATA offering yet, but it's sold in one of the ATA top leader's schools, likely as a test product. They already DO have XMA and Krav Maga, so it's not an unlikely step to sell another system like KFM too.

I dunno. Something like what the ITA is doing with Hanmudo makes sense to me, considering the somewhat overlapping heritage TKD and hapkido have with one another. Grafting on Krav Maga or KFM into taekwondo just seems wrong to me. What's next, Wing Chun streamed to your digital cable box?

I was seriously kidding about the whole Krav Maga thing. I honestly didn't see that one coming.

ATA just moved down a couple hundred more notches IMO, if that's even possible.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Again, I have to disagree here. Nowhere in the ATA literature does it say that it is marketed specifically for kids, or for anyone else in particular.

Actually, their website says that they provide an enjoyable environment that people of all ages can participate in. They also term themselves leaders in the martial arts industry. Translation to any intelligent person is, broad customer base. Perusing the website I found this:

There are programs for all ages and abilities the ATA utilizes in its education of Taekwondo:

1. Tiny Tigers Program- ages 2 to 6 years old
2. Karate for Kids Program- ages 7 to 13 years old
3. Black Belt Academy Program- adults
4. Protech Training Weapons Program
5. ATA Xtreme

This is a very slick website (compliment to the website) and is a marketer's dream.

I still say that if the ATA wasn't ok with the quality of instruction, they wouldn't have their name on it.

If it's the individual school that's providing watered-down instruction, then shame on the instructors. If it's the organization as a whole that's promoting watered-down instruction, then shame on them.

Agree 100%. As a closed org, they are much more directly responsible for the quality, curriculum, and conduct of their member schools.

The bottom line is that people need to know what they're getting into...not everyone is aware of what a martial art will look like that is designed for SD, and there have been quite a few people that I know that ranked up in ATA that genuinely thought that spending an hour class doing windmill punches would help them protect themselves. If the school is there to provide SD instruction, then the cirriculum needs to change. If it's not there to provide SD instruction, then it should be clear as to what it actually does offer.

The info is out there. People need only look. If I were plunking down the equivalent of a car payment for two kids, I'd be doing research for a couple of months. I'd be watching classes. I'd be looking at all of the schools in my area. How many people do this?

Even my research was pretty shallow when I picked my current school, but I also had a good idea of what I was looking at when I went in.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And that pretty much drives my point home. The ATA is willing to charge for weekly online classes to teach a martial art that a movie made famous...and little else is known about it.

Seriously...it's all about the $$. They don't care about providing anything of quality, otherwise, they would, at the very, very least, conduct a seminar with a living, breathing, flesh and blood instructor who the students could ask questions. It's something else they can get a buck for, so that's what they're doing.

How am I supposed to be ok with this? Seriously? People are actually going to do this and think that they're getting something legit. I'm willing to bet that you could earn rank in Keysi this way....at least, through the ATA anyway...

/facepalm

Ah, come on now; they had to do something; University of Phoenix was cutting into the biz.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

I would just like to note, that I am glad that we are able to have meaningful and adult conversation on a subject without anyone getting mad or angry over difference of opinion. You can't learn that in a school no matter what org its in.

Back to the subject at hand though.

I feel that Songahm TKD is a valid style of TKD/martial arts. I do not feel like anyone should feel ashamed for learning it. I feel that the ATA as an organization is not anything I want to be involved in (too bad I can't compete in their tournaments). By opening an ATA school the owner would be required (I'm sure alot of them don't) to follow ALL of ATA's standards and practices. As a subsidary of a parent company a business should adopt everything that the parent company has stated as part of the business. The minute a school paints "ATA" on the door and starts handing out ATA logoed gi's, they've lumped themselves in with everything the ATA represents and advertises. It doesn't matter what they teach or how they teach it. ATA as an organization has trumped that. ATA has become the style. Your no longer a songahm practicioner, you are an ATA member. I bet they even have picture ID's.

The truth is, the general public likes to hold on to something. They like being a part of a team/group. The ATA gives them this and more. Its not about the TKD, its not about the instruction. Its the reason why the "black belt" has become so menial. Everyone has one, thanks to the ATA. I just try to remember that I am seperated from the ATA and my rank does not = ATA rank equivalency. The ATA organization will have to do some changing to get me to give them a second glance. I see the rich man's TKD school, where training is left at the door in exchange for patches, and high fives. Thats what it eminates and thats all I see on the outside.

I've checked out a few ATA schools, and they all had the same response to my questions...

"We'd be happy to have you sit in on a class, we offer kids and family packages at competitive prices."

What about the TKD? Is that included?

 

[Sylo]

this is brilliance.

camo belt test.

no they never touch each other in sparring, and yes the first thing they do is break rebreakable boards while wearing full foot protection..

yes, they are kids.. but geez.. how much do you have to water it down before its not even martial arts anymore.

yes it gets better....

a bit older this time, still geared and still not making any contact. I don't even know how you could possibly work on techniques like this.

 

[HM2PAC]

The testing in ATA is the biggest thing I have a gripe with.

1. Non-Contact sparring. Enough said, it's pansy. (Yes I realize that was insulting).
2. Board breaking. (The re-breakable boards are really tough, I bench 300+, but the boards are tough.) I just don't get the board breaking. It's great for demo's, but other than that......???
3. Regurgitating a form you've only learned 8 weeks prior.
4. Breaking with sparring gear on. Right now this is only recommended. My instructors already know that if it ever becomes mandatory that my family is out of there. That is my line in the sand. I do believe that board holders should wear head gear and hand gear, but for the person breaking?


Children in the 4-7 y/o range just do not have the motor development to execute much of anything properly. At 8 they are getting there.

That being said, I think that 4-8 y/o's that are in MA's have a leg up so to speak over their non-MA peers. But to make them BB's? I can't stomach it.

 

[Sylo]

The testing in ATA is the biggest thing I have a gripe with.

1. Non-Contact sparring. Enough said, it's pansy. (Yes I realize that was insulting).
2. Board breaking. (The re-breakable boards are really tough, I bench 300+, but the boards are tough.) I just don't get the board breaking. It's great for demo's, but other than that......???
3. Regurgitating a form you've only learned 8 weeks prior.
4. Breaking with sparring gear on. Right now this is only recommended. My instructors already know that if it ever becomes mandatory that my family is out of there. That is my line in the sand. I do believe that board holders should wear head gear and hand gear, but for the person breaking?


Children in the 4-7 y/o range just do not have the motor development to execute much of anything properly. At 8 they are getting there.

That being said, I think that 4-8 y/o's that are in MA's have a leg up so to speak over their non-MA peers. But to make them BB's? I can't stomach it.

Right, well with the board breaking. I wasn't so much commenting on the type of board as to the fact that it was done first.. (or at least it looks that way). I also thought there was a bit too much "coaching" by the instructor. I mean, if your testing you should know how to do whatever it is your doing by now. I enjoyed how he stated that "We aren't just giving the belt to you". The footgear in order to avoid injury was silly imo. If your too young to kick a board properly without hurting your foot.. whats going to happen when you have to kick flesh and bone?

Sparring at that age.. well exactly who will they hurt that little? Give them a little bit of contact to work with. I can understand "pulling" moves as a way to learn control... but just kicking in the air with at least a foot away? Whats that teaching them? To hyperextend their legs? The Teacher again asks the "parents" to clap and cheer, and even tells the testers to "yell" if they someone to pay attention to them. So the parents are clapping and our testers kick at the air for what 30 secs?

As I said before.. the "content" of whats being taught is fine. Its the way its applied thats the problem. I bet this school has a close to 100 a month or more fee plus all the other applicable gear and test fees. Man they sure are getting there money's worth. I hate to see the black belt test.

 

[HM2PAC]

The whole "Non-Contact Sparring" thing is what I still don't understand. It ONLY goes on at testing. All other times the sparring in class is light contact or full contact. And the non-contact stuff.......ALL BELTS. It is obviously meant for show and is not meant to be a true representation of TKD. The BB's are pretty good at getting really close, but I would rather see the flesh pressed a little myself.

Children in sparring gear.....just as fun to watch as kids in football gear, hockey gear, or baseball......bobbleheads.

Get this......

The boards are almost impossible to break with pads on. Pads work....they negate energy. It's mind-blowing really.

 

[BrandonLucas]

this is brilliance.

camo belt test.

no they never touch each other in sparring, and yes the first thing they do is break rebreakable boards while wearing full foot protection..

yes, they are kids.. but geez.. how much do you have to water it down before its not even martial arts anymore.

yes it gets better....

a bit older this time, still geared and still not making any contact. I don't even know how you could possibly work on techniques like this.

The only thing I can really say here is anyone thinking of joining the ATA should be shown videos like these.

If this looks like your kind of thing, then by all means, go for it.

What I regret is that there are still people out there...i.e. many of the kids and instructors in the videos....that think this method of learning a martial art will help them.

I seriously have no gripe at all about the material covered. I can see how it is based in TKD...pretty loosely based, but it's there...but at least the cirriculum itself wouldn't be a bad idea to learn....if you could find someone to teach it with any kind of discipline.

Kids aren't going to understand why their spinning side kick isn't effective against a live, aggressive opponnent who isn't afraid to hit and be hit.

And that's where I have to draw the line. The whole point of martial arts is to learn how to defend yourself in a compentant manner. If people continue to pull the wool over kids eyes and tell them it's ok to never make contact when punching and kicking, then the kids are going to be in a lot of trouble if the need should ever arise to defend themselves or others.

It's like going to cullinary school to learn how to make exquisite food, but only being allowed to prepare grilled cheese sandwiches. What's the point in that?

 

[Sylo]

Any ATA guys out there? Would be cool to get the perspective of some long time ATA students that post here.

 

[terryl965]

Any ATA guys out there? Would be cool to get the perspective of some long time ATA students that post here.

I would agree

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The only thing I can really say here is anyone thinking of joining the ATA should be shown videos like these.

If this looks like your kind of thing, then by all means, go for it.

What I regret is that there are still people out there...i.e. many of the kids and instructors in the videos....that think this method of learning a martial art will help them.

I seriously have no gripe at all about the material covered. I can see how it is based in TKD...pretty loosely based, but it's there...but at least the cirriculum itself wouldn't be a bad idea to learn....if you could find someone to teach it with any kind of discipline.

And this would be the difference between a good school and a poor school. Which is why I said earlier that it is the individual school and instructor that are important.

I have been to a number of TKD and karate schools in my area, none of them ATA; I don't think that there are any ATA in my area. At some of these schools, I have seen instruction that borders on criminal in its lack of quality. Yet these were schools in respectable organizations and sometimes with ties to respectable masters in the local area. Of course, these schools were all chains and all had the slickest literature and websites.

Just to clarify, I'm not slaming chains or slick advertising. There are some very fine chain schools in the area and some fine schools with strong marketing. That just happened to be the common thread between the bad eggs.

My point is that none of these schools were ATA schools and the SD curriculum was superior to what you'd see in the ATA curriculum. The problem was that it was taught so poorly that the students would have been better off at a good sport school with zero SD.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

And this would be the difference between a good school and a poor school. Which is why I said earlier that it is the individual school and instructor that are important.

I have been to a number of TKD and karate schools in my area, none of them ATA; I don't think that there are any ATA in my area. At some of these schools, I have seen instruction that borders on criminal in its lack of quality. Yet these were schools in respectable organizations and sometimes with ties to respectable masters in the local area. Of course, these schools were all chains and all had the slickest literature and websites.

Just to clarify, I'm not slaming chains or slick advertising. There are some very fine chain schools in the area and some fine schools with strong marketing. That just happened to be the common thread between the bad eggs.

My point is that none of these schools were ATA schools and the SD curriculum was superior to what you'd see in the ATA curriculum. The problem was that it was taught so poorly that the students would have been better off at a good sport school with zero SD.

Daniel

I agree with this completely.

Our point was that, while this is true.

Where ATA = New York/California (the places you always hear about in the media)

The "Non ATA poorly instructed school" is more = to Idaho (the smaller lesser talked about state)

Its all over, but ATA is usually the one everyone hears and knows about because obviously its the huge conglomerate. Therefore it takes the most heat for it, regardless of what others are doing.