ata? Good, bad newbie needs help

[Daniel Sullivan]

Around my area, its all KKW/WTF, a few ITF, and a bunch of non-affiliated. There is one, lone ITA school in Seat Pleasant Maryland, but that is a good distance from me. A good number of "independents" who teach "karate" have their own curriculum that incorporates just enough TKD that they use the KKW for certification.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

And this would be the difference between a good school and a poor school. Which is why I said earlier that it is the individual school and instructor that are important.

I have been to a number of TKD and karate schools in my area, none of them ATA; I don't think that there are any ATA in my area. At some of these schools, I have seen instruction that borders on criminal in its lack of quality. Yet these were schools in respectable organizations and sometimes with ties to respectable masters in the local area. Of course, these schools were all chains and all had the slickest literature and websites.

Just to clarify, I'm not slaming chains or slick advertising. There are some very fine chain schools in the area and some fine schools with strong marketing. That just happened to be the common thread between the bad eggs.

My point is that none of these schools were ATA schools and the SD curriculum was superior to what you'd see in the ATA curriculum. The problem was that it was taught so poorly that the students would have been better off at a good sport school with zero SD.

Daniel

If I'm understanding you correctly, I agree with you here.

If we're talking about somebody walking in off the street and seeing a class full of kids jumping through hoops wearing blackbelts, then it's probably not going to matter whether ATA or ITF is painted on the door in big red letters. That much I can agree with.

The problem, though, is that 90% of the schools with ATA on their door have the same set of issues. ATA, the organization, does nothing to help the steady decline of instruction for TKD...in fact, it does the opposite by adding to it.

So, what I'm saying here, is that it's true that there are schools of all makes, models, types, brands, etc. that have poor instruction and cirriculum. But the ATA seems to be at the head of the class in this regard, if they're not the leader of the pack.

IMO, if the ATA were to fold, you would see a large, large portion of the problems and issues that TKD has float away like a piece of shipwrecked debris.

In regards to what I was saying as far as it all depending on what you're looking for...

If someone is looking for hardcore training, and all that is available are ATA schools, (which seem to pop up all over the place, very much like Wal-Mart like Sylo was comparing them to), then all they have to do is sit in on a class and see for themselves what they would and would not get out of attending class there.

However, if someone isn't sure of what they're looking for, but knows that they want to be involved in a serious martial art, all it takes is for the slick-talking instructor/salesman to convince them that they've come to the right place. So, now the person who was looking for something that would benefit them in the aspect of SD are unknowingly paying for a service that just won't benefit them much at all.

Now, I do agree that it's up to the individual to research what they want to pay for...but it's also up to the school to be upfront about the services that they offer. I wouldn't expect for an ATA instructor to tell me that the school sucks, and isn't what I'm looking for...

IMO, the best practice for this would be that what the student is looking for should either be volunteered by the student, or should be asked by the instructor. If the student isn't sure of what they're looking for, then the instructor should be up front about what is offered, and what the student should expect to learn from attending the school, and what would be expected of them.

I don't think that this is being done with any degree of truthfulness on the ATA organization's part. Like you said, they have slick advertising that misdirects potential students to think that they're getting quality instruction...when in reality, if the potential student were able to compare an ATA class to another TKD class that actually has live training, then they would be able to see the difference.

The problem is that many people either aren't able to compare classes because they aren't near a different school or don't have access to literature or videos that would allow them to compare, or they simply don't know that they should compare the classes. If the instructor is slick enough, then they can convince students of most anything regarding the instruction there. Instructors are looked at as having the most knowledge of martial arts..beyond anyone else at the school...and they should.

But the ATA is good at making sure the students don't realize that their training may not be what they're looking for...and that the training that they're receiving is the best possible training they could get.

 

[Sylo]

If I'm understanding you correctly, I agree with you here.

If we're talking about somebody walking in off the street and seeing a class full of kids jumping through hoops wearing blackbelts, then it's probably not going to matter whether ATA or ITF is painted on the door in big red letters. That much I can agree with.

The problem, though, is that 90% of the schools with ATA on their door have the same set of issues. ATA, the organization, does nothing to help the steady decline of instruction for TKD...in fact, it does the opposite by adding to it.

So, what I'm saying here, is that it's true that there are schools of all makes, models, types, brands, etc. that have poor instruction and cirriculum. But the ATA seems to be at the head of the class in this regard, if they're not the leader of the pack.

IMO, if the ATA were to fold, you would see a large, large portion of the problems and issues that TKD has float away like a piece of shipwrecked debris.

In regards to what I was saying as far as it all depending on what you're looking for...

If someone is looking for hardcore training, and all that is available are ATA schools, (which seem to pop up all over the place, very much like Wal-Mart like Sylo was comparing them to), then all they have to do is sit in on a class and see for themselves what they would and would not get out of attending class there.

However, if someone isn't sure of what they're looking for, but knows that they want to be involved in a serious martial art, all it takes is for the slick-talking instructor/salesman to convince them that they've come to the right place. So, now the person who was looking for something that would benefit them in the aspect of SD are unknowingly paying for a service that just won't benefit them much at all.

Now, I do agree that it's up to the individual to research what they want to pay for...but it's also up to the school to be upfront about the services that they offer. I wouldn't expect for an ATA instructor to tell me that the school sucks, and isn't what I'm looking for...

IMO, the best practice for this would be that what the student is looking for should either be volunteered by the student, or should be asked by the instructor. If the student isn't sure of what they're looking for, then the instructor should be up front about what is offered, and what the student should expect to learn from attending the school, and what would be expected of them.

I don't think that this is being done with any degree of truthfulness on the ATA organization's part. Like you said, they have slick advertising that misdirects potential students to think that they're getting quality instruction...when in reality, if the potential student were able to compare an ATA class to another TKD class that actually has live training, then they would be able to see the difference.

The problem is that many people either aren't able to compare classes because they aren't near a different school or don't have access to literature or videos that would allow them to compare, or they simply don't know that they should compare the classes. If the instructor is slick enough, then they can convince students of most anything regarding the instruction there. Instructors are looked at as having the most knowledge of martial arts..beyond anyone else at the school...and they should.

But the ATA is good at making sure the students don't realize that their training may not be what they're looking for...and that the training that they're receiving is the best possible training they could get.

You can go on the ATA website right now and read all about what they offer. Its kind of funny how they skirt around SD putting all the other stuff over it.

 

[just2kicku]

Like Daniel said, people will reserach buying a tv more than researching a martial arts school. And Brandon I agree with you on the slick sales pitch. The problem is that 80 to 90 percent of you average joes will settle. Whether it be a car, tv, or buying something at a 7/11 for a little higher price rather than going 3 more blocks down the street to a grocery store where it's cheaper. It's convenient and the instructors/sales guy/owner knows this. I'm not sure how the org works but I'm sure the org takes their money from the top. So they play the percentages.
The problem is once signed up they've got you, they put you in an enclosure with their ata only tourneys and seminars and camps, where you only associate with other ata members who will tell you how great the org is and you really believe it. they start thinking that ata is the most effective system out there because the org limits their exposure to everyone else.
So the problem just perpetutates itself when some of these said students open up their own schools. Maybe they started out with good intentions and ciriculum but as each generation passes, the system gets more and more watered down. Kinda like the tell a friend game, by the time it gets back to you it's nothing like you started out with.


Hmmm....... drink the kool-aid!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If I'm understanding you correctly, I agree with you here.

If we're talking about somebody walking in off the street and seeing a class full of kids jumping through hoops wearing blackbelts, then it's probably not going to matter whether ATA or ITF is painted on the door in big red letters. That much I can agree with.

Yes, we are on the same page here.

The problem, though, is that 90% of the schools with ATA on their door have the same set of issues. ATA, the organization, does nothing to help the steady decline of instruction for TKD...in fact, it does the opposite by adding to it.

So, what I'm saying here, is that it's true that there are schools of all makes, models, types, brands, etc. that have poor instruction and cirriculum. But the ATA seems to be at the head of the class in this regard, if they're not the leader of the pack.

IMO, if the ATA were to fold, you would see a large, large portion of the problems and issues that TKD has float away like a piece of shipwrecked debris.

While you may be correct, I don't have any first hand experience with the ATA, which is why I refrain from going any further than I do in my posts regarding the organization.

In regards to what I was saying as far as it all depending on what you're looking for...

If someone is looking for hardcore training, and all that is available are ATA schools, (which seem to pop up all over the place, very much like Wal-Mart like Sylo was comparing them to), then all they have to do is sit in on a class and see for themselves what they would and would not get out of attending class there.

I would agree with you, though my area seems to be devoid of ATA schools.

However, if someone isn't sure of what they're looking for, but knows that they want to be involved in a serious martial art, all it takes is for the slick-talking instructor/salesman to convince them that they've come to the right place. So, now the person who was looking for something that would benefit them in the aspect of SD are unknowingly paying for a service that just won't benefit them much at all.

Yes, this is true, though that is not ATA specific. There are schools like this in my area, just not ATA.

Now, I do agree that it's up to the individual to research what they want to pay for...but it's also up to the school to be upfront about the services that they offer. I wouldn't expect for an ATA instructor to tell me that the school sucks, and isn't what I'm looking for...

IMO, the best practice for this would be that what the student is looking for should either be volunteered by the student, or should be asked by the instructor. If the student isn't sure of what they're looking for, then the instructor should be up front about what is offered, and what the student should expect to learn from attending the school, and what would be expected of them.

100% agreement here.

I don't think that this is being done with any degree of truthfulness on the ATA organization's part. Like you said, they have slick advertising that misdirects potential students to think that they're getting quality instruction...when in reality, if the potential student were able to compare an ATA class to another TKD class that actually has live training, then they would be able to see the difference.

The problem is that many people either aren't able to compare classes because they aren't near a different school or don't have access to literature or videos that would allow them to compare, or they simply don't know that they should compare the classes. If the instructor is slick enough, then they can convince students of most anything regarding the instruction there. Instructors are looked at as having the most knowledge of martial arts..beyond anyone else at the school...and they should.

Again, I agree with you, but I also feel that this is contributed to by what amounts to intentional ingnorance on the part of the consumer. Keep in mind that most consumers in the US equate flashy patches and belts with quality. That's why Britney Spears and Madonna have careers and why WWE has been able to survive for decades in spite of predetermined outcomes in matches.

But the ATA is good at making sure the students don't realize that their training may not be what they're looking for...and that the training that they're receiving is the best possible training they could get.

Of course. The organization, like any organization, is in business to stay in business. Their job is to tell you how great their product is and to support their schools.

I place this responsibility on the individual school owners. Personal integrity should not go out the window just because the owner is affiliated with the ATA.

It might be a fairer statement to say that the ATA's structure is more attractive to the money oriented school owner who's more concerned with selling a product than with teaching students. Such individuals will gravitate to the ATA because their business model is, quite honestly, very effective and has been virtually cloned by every McDojo in existence.

I can't really blame the ATA for doing a good job in making their business model, though I do hold them responsible for policing their member schools.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Like Daniel said, people will reserach buying a tv more than researching a martial arts school. And Brandon I agree with you on the slick sales pitch. The problem is that 80 to 90 percent of you average joes will settle. Whether it be a car, tv, or buying something at a 7/11 for a little higher price rather than going 3 more blocks down the street to a grocery store where it's cheaper. It's convenient and the instructors/sales guy/owner knows this. I'm not sure how the org works but I'm sure the org takes their money from the top. So they play the percentages.
The problem is once signed up they've got you, they put you in an enclosure with their ata only tourneys and seminars and camps, where you only associate with other ata members who will tell you how great the org is and you really believe it. they start thinking that ata is the most effective system out there because the org limits their exposure to everyone else.
So the problem just perpetutates itself when some of these said students open up their own schools. Maybe they started out with good intentions and ciriculum but as each generation passes, the system gets more and more watered down. Kinda like the tell a friend game, by the time it gets back to you it's nothing like you started out with.


Hmmm....... drink the kool-aid!

I believe this is how it happens....

ATA student becomes black belt.....

ATA students pays fees and whatever is required to become instructor since all of this is "in house" with ATA. He can't get certified by anyone but the ATA.

ATA (now instructor) opens up school, he may very well be a decent martial artist and know his songahm. However, he also has to follow all of the practices that the ATA gives him, as a part of being an "ATA" school.

So, because of this.. You SHOULD be able to step into any ATA school in the country and get almost the identical training. Because they are "supposed" to be following all of the ATA's guidelines. They may adopt some of their own, but they would still need to follow all of the ATA's in order to maintain the school.

What does this mean? It means, that the ATA as a org is responsible for the laxness of its schools, because they set it up that way. Its meant to be a money machine. They use key words, and excellent marketing to market the "product" to an audience that happens to be pretty broad. They don't want people interested in martial arts like "us" they want people who are easily swayed. They don't want you to ask questions.

I wouldn't mind learning Songham TKD, and I wouldn't even mind learning it from someone who learned it in an ATA school. I just don't want to be taught it the "ATA" way.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In my last post where I said...

It might be a fairer statement to say that the ATA's structure is more attractive to the money oriented school owner who's more concerned with selling a product than with teaching students. Such individuals will gravitate to the ATA because their business model is, quite honestly, very effective and has been virtually cloned by every McDojo in existence.

... this ...

So they play the percentages.
The problem is once signed up they've got you, they put you in an enclosure with their ata only tourneys and seminars and camps, where you only associate with other ata members who will tell you how great the org is and you really believe it. they start thinking that ata is the most effective system out there because the org limits their exposure to everyone else.

... is what I was talking about. It is this aspect of the ATA that appeals to the entrepreneur and the style over substance school owner who is in it for the money.

Remember, the entrepreneur is one who sees the opportunity and takes advantage of it for profit. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but profit should not be at the expense of a quality product, particularly when the pricing structure of the ATA is so expensive.

Daniel

 

[just2kicku]

You can offer a quality product at a good price and still make money. But this is an age of "Cheaper is better". You take a product, make it cheaper and to a little lower standard but charge more for it, people will buy it. I think this is the philosophy of this certain org. Unfortunately, these are business people. They have short term goals of profit and the consumer gets the shaft. But because of the isolation within the org they get get away with it. Their students really have nothing to compare it to because they've been conditioned to think this is the greatest. It's always easier looking at it from the outside rather than within. If the instructor of a particular school "sees the light" he has a choice, he could leave the org. Wouldn't they still be his students? Or are they under contract with the org as well?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It costs no more to teach well than it does to teach poorly. Heck, it may cost less.

Daniel

 

[bluekey88]

You can offer a quality product at a good price and still make money. But this is an age of "Cheaper is better". You take a product, make it cheaper and to a little lower standard but charge more for it, people will buy it. I think this is the philosophy of this certain org. Unfortunately, these are business people. They have short term goals of profit and the consumer gets the shaft. But because of the isolation within the org they get get away with it. Their students really have nothing to compare it to because they've been conditioned to think this is the greatest. It's always easier looking at it from the outside rather than within. If the instructor of a particular school "sees the light" he has a choice, he could leave the org. Wouldn't they still be his students? Or are they under contract with the org as well?

This "in house" thing also effects the instructors. teh ATA has trademarked their forms...and I bet all instructors are using trademarked/copywrited curriculum and have signed non-compete clauses in their teaching contracts. Basically, any instuctor that breaks with the org migh find it hard to actually teach what they know. They'd ahve to have teaching rank in some other art and then go and teach that...perhaps somewher else not near an ATA school.

Peace,
Erik

 

[just2kicku]

This "in house" thing also effects the instructors. teh ATA has trademarked their forms...and I bet all instructors are using trademarked/copywrited curriculum and have signed non-compete clauses in their teaching contracts. Basically, any instuctor that breaks with the org migh find it hard to actually teach what they know. They'd ahve to have teaching rank in some other art and then go and teach that...perhaps somewher else not near an ATA school.

Peace,
Erik

Wow, they really got you by the short hairs! Keep your students with blinders on and they'll follow you off a cliff.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This "in house" thing also effects the instructors. teh ATA has trademarked their forms...and I bet all instructors are using trademarked/copywrited curriculum and have signed non-compete clauses in their teaching contracts. Basically, any instuctor that breaks with the org migh find it hard to actually teach what they know. They'd ahve to have teaching rank in some other art and then go and teach that...perhaps somewher else not near an ATA school.

Yet another reason that the ATA would appeal to less than scrupulous entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs with little martial training and lots of business sense.

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

Yet another reason that the ATA would appeal to less than scrupulous entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs with little martial training and lots of business sense.

Daniel

Lets see...

TKD
Blackbelt clubs
summer camp
adult camps
little dragons
closed tournaments
merit badges
weapons
MMA
XMA

whats next?

fast food chain and feature films?

 

[BrandonLucas]

Lets see...

TKD
Blackbelt clubs
summer camp
adult camps
little dragons
closed tournaments
merit badges
weapons
MMA
XMA

whats next?

fast food chain and feature films?

Online Ninja Class

 

[just2kicku]

Lets see...

TKD
Blackbelt clubs
summer camp
adult camps
little dragons
closed tournaments
merit badges
weapons
MMA
XMA

whats next?

fast food chain and feature films?

I think you forgot non contact grappling. Can't supersize it without that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Online Ninja Class

Nah. Come on, Brandon, we already know the answer to this: Online Keysi Fighting Method so that you can fight like Batman.

Daniel

P.S. I wish I was kidding.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Nah. Come on, Brandon, we already know the answer to this: Online Keysi Fighting Method so that you can fight like Batman.

Daniel

P.S. I wish I was kidding.

Well, for you information, there is a difference between Ninja training and Batman training...it's actually...

well...

crap, you're right.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not only that, you can go to the KFM Online University! Take that, Phoenix! Bam! Pow! Zowie!
http://www.keysikfm.com/pages/index.phphttp://www.keysikfm.com/pages/universitylearnmore.php#howmuch

Daniel

 

[Sylo]

I think you forgot non contact grappling. Can't supersize it without that.

MMA they have MMA

 

[astrobiologist]

Phew... I'm out of town for a few days and you people get through all of this...

Sounds like this thread has come around to a point of pretty good argument and discussion. Kudos my friends!