At what point do you tap in a blood choke?

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skribs

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There's a difference between gutting out an almost choke where your chin is down and you're very uncomfortable, but know it's safe, or it's sunk in and you're just waiting to tap or go to sleep. If the latter, I say tap quick, reset, and try again.

In BJJ, there are techniques to defend that are "on time". Basically, you're countering early and have a higher chance of success. There are defensive techniques that are "just in time" where the lock is on, but you have time to defend if you know how. Then there are defensive techniques that are late, like a last ditch effort. If the choke is in tight and you're wondering when to tap, it's probably in that last category. And if so, IMO, it's perfectly acceptable to tap and then try to figure out how it happened and what you can do next time.
Part of my thought process is that I'm already trying to learn so much, that learning how to get out of a sunk technique is not even something I want to worry about right now. I figure I'll eventually work on it. But for now, I have some things I actually have some idea of what I'm doing, and I'll try and hit those.
 

JowGaWolf

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I think the question would be, how good is your instructor at resuscitation techniques?
Funny but not funny.. I agree. Someone on the scene should be certified for First Aid and CPR at the minimum and should know other things as well, especially if it's a norm to be putting people to sleep.

My thing is tap out when you can. If the technique that is being applied is working and you can't escape without major risk then tap out. Then learn how not to be put in the same situation again. Knowing how to fight out of a choke or joint lock is good. Knowing how to not be put in that situation in the first place is better.
 
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Gyakuto

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I have heard of people seeing stars after a heavy lift.
This is because during a lift,the thorax and abdomen is 'pressurised' via the valsalva manoeuvre (contracting the abdominal muscle against a closed glottis) to allow it to be rigid. Cerebral blood pressure is thus considerably increased. When the lift is completed and the pressure is released, there is a massive drop in blood pressure and momentary cessation in cerebral blood flow causing the visual effects, dizziness and even fainting!

Sometimes, when I'm weeding or tying my boot laces I get the same effect! I've had to quickly lie down for fear of collapsing and whacking my head!
 

Jimmythebull

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This is because during a lift,the thorax and abdomen is 'pressurised' via the valsalva manoeuvre (contracting the abdominal muscle against a closed glottis) to allow it to be rigid. Cerebral blood pressure is thus considerably increased. When the lift is completed and the pressure is released, there is a massive drop in blood pressure and momentary cessation in cerebral blood flow causing the visual effects, dizziness and even fainting!

Sometimes, when I'm weeding or tying my boot laces I get the same effect! I've had to quickly lie down for fear of collapsing and whacking my head!
have you ever Deadlifted heavy iron? Just curious
 

Tony Dismukes

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He told me that if I'm in a choke and I can still breathe, then it's not too late and I should fight out of it.
Absolutely incorrect and a purple belt should know better. Perhaps he just mis-phrased what he meant to say.
But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.

When do you tap to a blood choke? Is it something you feel in your neck or in your head?
The big signs for me that a blood choke (or "strangle" as some people label it) is set include:
  • light-headedness
  • a feeling of pressure in the head
  • narrowing of field of vision
  • tingling in the extremities
There won't necessarily be significant discomfort in your neck or anywhere else. (Although there can be if your sparring partner squeezes hard enough.) With a little more experience, you'll learn to recognize when the blood flow to your brain has been shut off.
 

Steve

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Part of my thought process is that I'm already trying to learn so much, that learning how to get out of a sunk technique is not even something I want to worry about right now. I figure I'll eventually work on it. But for now, I have some things I actually have some idea of what I'm doing, and I'll try and hit those.
I'm just reacting to the topic you raised. If you're looking for a literal response to the single question you asked, I guess I'd just say if you don't know what to do and aren't prepared to learn what to do at that time (lack of focus, lack of mental bandwidth, lack of interest, etc) best to just tap. Sitting in a choke just waiting to be put to sleep is a waste of time.

It is possible that the purple belt with whom you were rolling was just basically giving you a chance to try and figure it out. His comment sounds a little like he knew he had the choke but was trying to give you a chance to counter. BJJ is like a puzzle.
 

Gyakuto

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But not because of the constriction.

Compressing the vagus and carotid areas of the side of the neck produce the vasovagal syncope effect, which is basically your body thinking your blood pressure just went to the moon, which causes the reflex to occur.

Your blood pressure goes to the floor, and so do you, for about a minute or two, if you're lucky and don't die on the spot (it can happen).
Sorry to be pedantic, but it's actually the compression of the carotid sinus at the bifurcation of the carotid artery into the internal (to the brain) and external (to the face) carotid arteries. The carotid sinus detects changes in blood pressure and is innervated by the glossopharyngeal nerve (cranial nerve IX). The vagus does run along in the carotid sheath which contains the carotid artery and jugular vein and sympathetic plexus but is not involved in the functioning of the carotid sinus. I used to enjoy dissecting this area out for the students to see. But your description of the mechanism is great!

I used to let the students try the tonic vibration reflex which involves using a physiotherapy vibrator (ahem). I had to make it very clear that they didn't apply it to their necks in case they elicited this reflex rendering them unconscious or even causing death...the incident report forms were a pain to fill out, you see.
 
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Steve

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Absolutely incorrect and a purple belt should know better. Perhaps he just mis-phrased what he meant to say.
If I were a betting man, I'd wager he knew @skribs was okay because he wasn't pushing the submission and was trying to work with him. The story makes some sense if that's the case.
 

Tony Dismukes

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If I were a betting man, I'd wager he knew @skribs was okay because he wasn't pushing the submission and was trying to work with him. The story makes some sense if that's the case.
It is entirely possible that the purple belt knew the choke wasn't actually sunk in yet and so skribs had time to try working an escape. It's just the explanation of "if you can still breathe" that was totally wrong.
 
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It is entirely possible that the purple belt knew the choke wasn't actually sunk in yet and so skribs had time to try working an escape. It's just the explanation of "if you can still breathe" that was totally wrong.
Yeah, that kind of threw me off. He's a nice guy. But sometimes he doesn't explain things well, and I think he forgets that we're mostly white belts in our gym (expects us to know things we haven't been trained yet or haven't spent much time on if we have learned it).
 

Tony Dismukes

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Yeah, that kind of threw me off. He's a nice guy. But sometimes he doesn't explain things well, and I think he forgets that we're mostly white belts in our gym (expects us to know things we haven't been trained yet or haven't spent much time on if we have learned it).
Here's something you might try if that happens again and he tells you that you tapped too soon. Ask him to put the choke back on and sink it in all the way so that you can feel the difference between when it's there and when it isn't.
 
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Here's something you might try if that happens again and he tells you that you tapped too soon. Ask him to put the choke back on and sink it in all the way so that you can feel the difference between when it's there and when it isn't.
The other problem is it often happens at the end of class, and I'm just thinking, "Dude, I've already forgotten a dozen things we learned today..."
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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So it's already been addressed a couple times in here that the "if you can still breathe" logic is wrong.


What hasn't been said (I think) is someone else shouldn't be the one telling you not to tap. With the exception of some glaring instances where they know they haven't got it right, you're welcome to tap whenever you feel you need to. Asking why you tapped is perfectly fine, if they didn't think they had anything tap-worthy at that point, but telling you not to tap is not okay in my book.
 

Dirty Dog

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Would it not be the same? Oxygen is in the blood and is prevented from getting to vital areas. I do think some people feel the effects sooner than others. Seeing stars, lights going out and such.
I would not get too sideways by someone trying to tell me Not to tap. Listen to your own body.
There is something to be said for the 'fading' sensation if you have not experienced it yet.
It's not at all the same. There is a vast difference between not being able to breath (an air choke) and not being able to get blood to your brain. Best suggestion? Get someone who knows what they're doing to apply both types. You'll see how different the sensations are in just seconds.
OK..so let's suppose there's no Doctors or nurses in the class. You're out cold & there's complications.. are you going to wait for an Ambulance? You could be dead in minutes. I'm guessing this is why this is still tought at the Kodokan. After all if you died on the mat because everyone stood around looking at you..( probably worried about doing something wrong) wouldn't your family say why the hell did nobody try something. Fact is it's better to do something & certainly learn these techniques if you're teaching it.
"We have to do something" is wrong. "We have to do something that can actually make a difference" is right. Effective CPR is not the least bit difficult to teach or learn. Even suggesting to students that using the techniques shown instead of CPR is an option is idiotic. Actually using them is inexcusable.

Most schools in the US provide basic CPR training to High School students. There is no reason, under any circumstances, that these methods should be used.
I have heard of people seeing stars after a heavy lift.
Sure. People will hold their breath and strain during a heavy lift. It increases intraabdominal and (far more importantly for this) intrathoracic pressures. When those pressures abruptly drop (the breath and muscular pressure are released) it causes a vagal response. The same vagal response that occurs during a blood choke.

We do this intentionally (and teach people how to do it to themselves at home) to people who have Supraventricular Tachycardia (SVT). It's quick, free, can be done pretty much anywhere, is reasonably effective (anywhere from 10-50%), and doesn't make things any worse if it doesn't work.

The same sort of response happens when people "stand up too fast". But pooping. Pooping is the number one cause of vasovagal syncope. So ask your opponent to bear down...
 

Jimmythebull

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Effective CPR is not the least bit difficult to teach or learn. Even suggesting to students that using the techniques shown instead of CPR is an option is idiotic. Actually using them is inexcusable.
actually i never suggested using it instead of CPR. read it again
obviously you never understood my post properly.
read,think,reply..
 

Tony Dismukes

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The same sort of response happens when people "stand up too fast".
That's actually the best analogy that I didn't think to make during my earlier explanation. Sometimes I'll be lying down reading and stand up too fast and get a momentary wave of light-headedness as if I was about to faint. It's pretty much the exact sensation that a well placed blood choke produces.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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actually i never suggested using it instead of CPR. read it again
obviously you never understood my post properly.
read,think,reply..
If you're doing one, you can't be doing the other. And you made the assumption that everyone would be standing around looking at you if they did not do these techniques, which would indicate they are not doing CPR.
 

Jimmythebull

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If you're doing one, you can't be doing the other. And you made the assumption that everyone would be standing around looking at you if they did not do these techniques, which would indicate they are not doing CPR.
and you are assuming the members can do CPR and even if some could most people are afraid to step up and do it, hence why i wrote "in case they do something wrong"
your comment "if you織re doing one, you can織t do the other" is irrelivant as i never mentioned CPR.. this is then your assumption.
Twist it how you like ..why do you think the Kodokan still teach this?
 
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