At what point do you tap in a blood choke?

skribs

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The purple belt at my gym was giving me a hard time for tapping early to a choke yesterday. I felt pressure on both sides of my neck and so I tapped. He told me that if I'm in a choke and I can still breathe, then it's not too late and I should fight out of it. But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.

When do you tap to a blood choke? Is it something you feel in your neck or in your head?

He's a nice guy and I think he's trying to be helpful, but sometimes I think he forgets that I'm a white belt and only been doing BJJ for a few months.
 

Jared Traveler

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The purple belt at my gym was giving me a hard time for tapping early to a choke yesterday. I felt pressure on both sides of my neck and so I tapped. He told me that if I'm in a choke and I can still breathe, then it's not too late and I should fight out of it. But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.

When do you tap to a blood choke? Is it something you feel in your neck or in your head?

He's a nice guy and I think he's trying to be helpful, but sometimes I think he forgets that I'm a white belt and only been doing BJJ for a few months.
Don't be afraid to tap early. Protect your body when rolling. You can endure a lot but over time your body will accumulate injuries.

With that said, when drilling, if you tap too early, your training partner might develop a false sense of confidence. You might cheat him out of the ability to figure out if he is making the technique work or not.
 

Dirty Dog

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You tap out when you think it's time to tap out. That will vary depending on circumstances.

If the guy I am rolling with, has control... I keep working until I start to see stars.... first star I see, I tap out.
This, for me. But even that varies.
I had one student (he's off serving in the Air Force now) who went to sleep a number of times. He would tap out just fine for joint or limb locks. But he refused to tap on blood chokes. In his case, talking to him about it revealed that he didn't see stars, or at least he didn't notice them. So he'd keep trying to fight out right up until he passed out. My solution was to not let him roll with anyone I wasn't sure had the experience to recognize when he was on his way out and release the choke. In a competitive setting, this could have been dangerous, but we've never been a sport school.
 

tkdroamer

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The purple belt at my gym was giving me a hard time for tapping early to a choke yesterday. I felt pressure on both sides of my neck and so I tapped. He told me that if I'm in a choke and I can still breathe, then it's not too late and I should fight out of it. But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.

When do you tap to a blood choke? Is it something you feel in your neck or in your head?

He's a nice guy and I think he's trying to be helpful, but sometimes I think he forgets that I'm a white belt and only been doing BJJ for a few months.
Would it not be the same? Oxygen is in the blood and is prevented from getting to vital areas. I do think some people feel the effects sooner than others. Seeing stars, lights going out and such.
I would not get too sideways by someone trying to tell me Not to tap. Listen to your own body.
There is something to be said for the 'fading' sensation if you have not experienced it yet.
 
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skribs

skribs

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Would it not be the same? Oxygen is in the blood and is prevented from getting to vital areas. I do think some people feel the effects sooner than others. Seeing stars, lights going out and such.
I would not get too sideways by someone trying to tell me Not to tap. Listen to your own body.
There is something to be said for the 'fading' sensation if you have not experienced it yet.
There's a big difference in how it feels if your windpipe is being crushed or not.
 

Oily Dragon

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Would it not be the same? Oxygen is in the blood and is prevented from getting to vital areas. I do think some people feel the effects sooner than others. Seeing stars, lights going out and such.
No.

You can hold your breath for minutes even while being choked.

But a proper blood choke will put you unconscious in a matter of seconds. You're not starving the brain of blood with a blood choke, you are attacking the how the nervous system protects the cardiovascular system. The body has an amazingly effective Panic Button located at the exact point blood chokes target.

I don't know tech stuff like why people see stars, but I was definitely taught that is one way to know when to tap, who cares what the type of choke is.

Stars means you're done and need a break, imho. But also agree, some people won't even notice the stars, they'll be too in the fight to care.
 

Oily Dragon

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But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.
But not because of the constriction.

Compressing the vagus and carotid areas of the side of the neck produce the vasovagal syncope effect, which is basically your body thinking your blood pressure just went to the moon, which causes the reflex to occur.

Your blood pressure goes to the floor, and so do you, for about a minute or two, if you're lucky and don't die on the spot (it can happen).
 

Bill Mattocks

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The purple belt at my gym was giving me a hard time for tapping early to a choke yesterday. I felt pressure on both sides of my neck and so I tapped. He told me that if I'm in a choke and I can still breathe, then it's not too late and I should fight out of it. But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.

When do you tap to a blood choke? Is it something you feel in your neck or in your head?

He's a nice guy and I think he's trying to be helpful, but sometimes I think he forgets that I'm a white belt and only been doing BJJ for a few months.
Tap while you still can.
 

Jimmythebull

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I think the question would be, how good is your instructor at resuscitation techniques?
 

Gyakuto

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The purple belt at my gym was giving me a hard time for tapping early to a choke yesterday. I felt pressure on both sides of my neck and so I tapped. He told me that if I'm in a choke and I can still breathe, then it's not too late and I should fight out of it. But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.

When do you tap to a blood choke? Is it something you feel in your neck or in your head?

He's a nice guy and I think he's trying to be helpful, but sometimes I think he forgets that I'm a white belt and only been doing BJJ for a few months.
Good heavens, there are some really poorly informed, macho teachers out there. Occluding the carotid arteries in the neck is dangerous and unnecessary. The brain requires about a fifth of the cardiac output so reducing it will cause cerebral distress (and potentially the loss of neurones) the heart rate increases dramatically in an attempt to reestablish cerebral blood flow, markedly increasing systemic blood pressure which could have dire consequences especially in the moments immediately after the occlusion is released. Dont do it. Pull your choke like others pull punches to the face or swords cuts are pulled before biting into the head.

If you do and have problems and youre in the U.K. please dont call an ambulance so they can attend to people whove had spontaneous medical emergencies, brought on by obesity, smoking and drinking alcohol.
 

dunc

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The purple belt at my gym was giving me a hard time for tapping early to a choke yesterday. I felt pressure on both sides of my neck and so I tapped. He told me that if I'm in a choke and I can still breathe, then it's not too late and I should fight out of it. But...a blood choke isn't an air choke. Airflow isn't restricted, but blood flow is.

When do you tap to a blood choke? Is it something you feel in your neck or in your head?

He's a nice guy and I think he's trying to be helpful, but sometimes I think he forgets that I'm a white belt and only been doing BJJ for a few months.
I don't agree with the "if you can still breathe" part as it's a bit overly simplistic, but like all things in training you have to learn where your limit is
Beginners often tap from the pressure of a choke, but you'll find that a) even with a good choke you have a few seconds before you need to tap, more if you can defend somewhat, or b) you don't need to tap when the choke isn't quite right despite there being pressure on your neck
Exploring this, finding your limits and how to extend them will start to give you a lot more time to defend/escape and you can become increasingly difficult to finish
It's surprising how easy it is, with a little study, to make a small defence adjustment that completely nullifies a choke
 

Jimmythebull

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Yeah. If I am knocked out. Don't touch me with that junk.
OK..so let's suppose there's no Doctors or nurses in the class. You're out cold & there's complications.. are you going to wait for an Ambulance? You could be dead in minutes. I'm guessing this is why this is still tought at the Kodokan. After all if you died on the mat because everyone stood around looking at you..( probably worried about doing something wrong) wouldn't your family say why the hell did nobody try something. Fact is it's better to do something & certainly learn these techniques if you're teaching it.
 

tkdroamer

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No.

You can hold your breath for minutes even while being choked.

But a proper blood choke will put you unconscious in a matter of seconds. You're not starving the brain of blood with a blood choke, you are attacking the how the nervous system protects the cardiovascular system. The body has an amazingly effective Panic Button located at the exact point blood chokes target.

I don't know tech stuff like why people see stars, but I was definitely taught that is one way to know when to tap, who cares what the type of choke is.

Stars means you're done and need a break, imho. But also agree, some people won't even notice the stars, they'll be too in the fight to care.
I have heard of people seeing stars after a heavy lift.
 

tkdroamer

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But not because of the constriction.

Compressing the vagus and carotid areas of the side of the neck produce the vasovagal syncope effect, which is basically your body thinking your blood pressure just went to the moon, which causes the reflex to occur.

Your blood pressure goes to the floor, and so do you, for about a minute or two, if you're lucky and don't die on the spot (it can happen).
Best explanation I have heard.
 

Steve

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There's a difference between gutting out an almost choke where your chin is down and you're very uncomfortable, but know it's safe, or it's sunk in and you're just waiting to tap or go to sleep. If the latter, I say tap quick, reset, and try again.

In BJJ, there are techniques to defend that are "on time". Basically, you're countering early and have a higher chance of success. There are defensive techniques that are "just in time" where the lock is on, but you have time to defend if you know how. Then there are defensive techniques that are late, like a last ditch effort. If the choke is in tight and you're wondering when to tap, it's probably in that last category. And if so, IMO, it's perfectly acceptable to tap and then try to figure out how it happened and what you can do next time.
 
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