At what point do you tap in a blood choke?

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,769
Reaction score
5,758
Location
New York
and you are assuming the members can do CPR and even if some could most people are afraid to step up and do it, hence why i wrote "in case they do something wrong"
your comment "if you織re doing one, you can織t do the other" is irrelivant as i never mentioned CPR.. this is then your assumption.
Twist it how you like ..why do you think the Kodokan still teach this?
My response was specifically to "actually i never suggested using it instead of CPR. read it again". Dirty dog said that they should learn and do CPR instead, and you responded with that. Which you are suggesting that they use it rather than CPR, even if you didn't mention CPR yourself.

By the same logic, if I tell someone "use colgate toothpaste", I am suggesting they use colgate rather than crest, as I told them to use one and did not tell them to use the other.

Regarding why they teach this, they actually say in the video (not verbatim but close) "there are no scientific studies to support this, but we feel it works". So the reason is they believe it works without scientific evidence.
 

Gyakuto

Master Black Belt
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2020
Messages
1,403
Reaction score
1,107
Location
UK
Regarding why they teach this, they actually say in the video (not verbatim but close) "there are no scientific studies to support this, but we feel it works". So the reason is they believe it works without scientific evidence.
I wonder if theyd be interested in some magic beans I have for sale?
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,325
Reaction score
7,150
Location
Lexington, KY
CPR vs traditional Kappo resuscitation techniques is kind of a false choice. CPR is for when someone's heart isn't beating. I'm not aware of anyone claiming that Kappo methods will restart the heart. Rather they seem to be aimed at reviving someone who is unconscious and isn't waking up immediately.

Of course, if the person is breathing and their heart is beating and they haven't suffered some sort of brain injury, then they will probably recover consciousness on their own anyway, so the resuscitation techniques probably won't make much difference either way. Best to just turn them on their side so that if they start to puke they won't choke on their own vomit.
 

Jimmythebull

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
798
Reaction score
262
Regarding why they teach this, they actually say in the video (not verbatim but close) "there are no scientific studies to support this, but we feel it works". So the reason is they believe it works without scientific evidence.
OK i織ll remember this quote when people start talking about chi, KI or anything martial arts related on this forum . Shorinji kempo also uses these techniques but also pressure points.
Funny that some things are ok on here but other martial art skills are not?
 

Jimmythebull

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
798
Reaction score
262
so the resuscitation techniques probably won't make much difference either way.
why teach them in martial arts, not just at the Kodokan? in Chinese & japanese martial arts.
If someone is chocking in a restaurant is it scientific proven to do this? have people been doing this for 100s of years?

Abdominal thrusts
  1. Stand behind the person who's choking.
  2. Place your arms around their waist and bend them forward.
  3. Clench 1 fist and place it right above their belly button.
  4. Put the other hand on top of your fist and pull sharply inwards and upwards.
  5. Repeat this movement up to 5 times.
 
OP
skribs

skribs

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 14, 2013
Messages
7,188
Reaction score
2,341
Of course, if the person is breathing and their heart is beating and they haven't suffered some sort of brain injury, then they will probably recover consciousness on their own anyway, so the resuscitation techniques probably won't make much difference either way. Best to just turn them on their side so that if they start to puke they won't choke on their own vomit.
It's kind of like when the grandma on Beverly Hill Billies came up with a cure for the common cold. Drink moonshine and lay in bed for 10 days.
 

Gyakuto

Master Black Belt
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2020
Messages
1,403
Reaction score
1,107
Location
UK

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,325
Reaction score
7,150
Location
Lexington, KY
why teach them in martial arts, not just at the Kodokan? in Chinese & japanese martial arts.
If someone is chocking in a restaurant is it scientific proven to do this? have people been doing this for 100s of years?

Abdominal thrusts
  1. Stand behind the person who's choking.
  2. Place your arms around their waist and bend them forward.
  3. Clench 1 fist and place it right above their belly button.
  4. Put the other hand on top of your fist and pull sharply inwards and upwards.
  5. Repeat this movement up to 5 times.
What youre describing there is the Heimlich maneuver. Im not aware of any sources claiming its been used for hundreds of years. Either way, its used for clearing the airway of an obstruction which is preventing the victim from being able to breathe. My comment described a situation where the unconscious person was breathing, so the Heimlich wouldnt be appropriate.
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,325
Reaction score
7,150
Location
Lexington, KY
That isnt strictly true.


If Im reading the links correctly, theyre not saying that CPR will help a person whose heart is beating. Rather theyre saying that a lay person may not be able to accurately determine whether the victim has a pulse and so if the other visible signs point to a possible stopped heart then its better to be safe than sorry.

Still good info to have, though. Thanks!
 

Jimmythebull

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
798
Reaction score
262
My comment described a situation where the unconscious person was breathing
you didn織t get my point or react to my other comments good. ..
what if he wasn織t breathing with an obstruction , let織s say a crown from his teeth came loose from the choking..obstructed his airway.
............................................................ tell me what you would do Tony
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,734
Reaction score
1,347
Sorry to be pedantic, but it's actually the compression of the carotid sinus at the bifurcation of the carotid artery into the internal (to the brain) and external (to the face) carotid arteries. The carotid sinus detects changes in blood pressure and is innervated by the glossopharyngeal nerve (cranial nerve IX). The vagus does run along in the carotid sheath which contains the carotid artery and jugular vein and sympathetic plexus but is not involved in the functioning of the carotid sinus. I used to enjoy dissecting this area out for the students to see. But your description of the mechanism is great!

I used to let the students try the tonic vibration reflex which involves using a physiotherapy vibrator (ahem). I had to make it very clear that they didn't apply it to their necks in case they elicited this reflex rendering them unconscious or even causing death...the incident report forms were a pain to fill out, you see.
"the Pyramidial tracts"...

You don't ever have to apologize to me, dude. I can take it.

I've had this discussion with pulmonologists, and some of them were BJJ and Judoka. The "blood choke" is misnamed, according to them, because it's not a choking off of the blood to the brain (everyone just thinks of the brain, not the whole system), when it's really the body trying to protect itself from extreme spikes in BP.

Which you can get by coughing or sneezing hard, lifting too hard, but BJJ and Judo blood chokes seem very well focused on actually causing this effect.

I've been both choked out, and choked others out. It's almost like magic, can happen in under 5 seconds. And it's very dependent on the situation, if you just started rolling you might be ok. If you're rolling for a few minutes and someone locks in a blood choke, sayonara baby.
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,734
Reaction score
1,347
Funny but not funny.. I agree. Someone on the scene should be certified for First Aid and CPR at the minimum and should know other things as well, especially if it's a norm to be putting people to sleep.

My thing is tap out when you can. If the technique that is being applied is working and you can't escape without major risk then tap out. Then learn how not to be put in the same situation again. Knowing how to fight out of a choke or joint lock is good. Knowing how to not be put in that situation in the first place is better.
It's sad to admit but I think there are a LOT of people in martial arts who don't really know their heart health.

We've got a few excellent members here who are on top of that, all things considered, trucking on.

But syncope from a choke like this is actually quite dangerous to many people. It helps to learn the feeling but...would never recommend going that far regularly. Hearts are delicate things, before we even get to the whole rest of the body.
 

Jimmythebull

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Sep 15, 2022
Messages
798
Reaction score
262
If Im reading the links correctly, theyre not saying that CPR will help a person whose heart is beating. Rather theyre saying that a lay person may not be able to accurately determine whether the victim has a pulse and so if the other visible signs point to a possible stopped heart then its better to be safe than sorry.

Still good info to have, though. Thanks!
Tony the guy sounds like he織s got a medical background, you clearly do not and still argue. well you try to alway be "half right" picking here & there.
He clearly is a paramedic or something in that area, sure he can google everything but i don織t think so. just because you織re a mod doesn織t mean you織re always correct. drop your EGO
 

Gyakuto

Master Black Belt
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2020
Messages
1,403
Reaction score
1,107
Location
UK
What youre describing there is the Heimlich maneuver. Im not aware of any sources claiming its been used for hundreds of years. Either way, its used for clearing the airway of an obstruction which is preventing the victim from being able to breathe. My comment described a situation where the unconscious person was breathing, so the Heimlich wouldnt be appropriate.
"the Pyramidial tracts"...

You don't ever have to apologize to me, dude. I can take it.

I've had this discussion with pulmonologists, and some of them were BJJ and Judoka. The "blood choke" is misnamed, according to them, because it's not a choking off of the blood to the brain (everyone just thinks of the brain, not the whole system), when it's really the body trying to protect itself from extreme spikes in BP.

Which you can get by coughing or sneezing hard, lifting too hard, but BJJ and Judo blood chokes seem very well focused on actually causing this effect.

I've been both choked out, and choked others out. It's almost like magic, can happen in under 5 seconds. And it's very dependent on the situation, if you just started rolling you might be ok. If you're rolling for a few minutes and someone locks in a blood choke, sayonara baby.
Youre a very cruel man. Why cant you just play nicely?尹

I cant think of anything worse than being choked-out. Just wearing scarf freaks me out!
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,734
Reaction score
1,347
Youre a very cruel man. Why cant you just play nicely?尹

I cant think of anything worse than being choked-out. Just wearing scarf freaks me out!
There's at least one Russian book on the "blood choke" anatomy. Complete with Putin.

Might be hard to find, now.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,769
Reaction score
5,758
Location
New York
OK i織ll remember this quote when people start talking about chi, KI or anything martial arts related on this forum . Shorinji kempo also uses these techniques but also pressure points.
Funny that some things are ok on here but other martial art skills are not?
I don't recall ever saying on here that I beleive in chi or Ki. Others definitely have, but I don't think I'm one of them. And I've argued with people about them before-but if you'll notice I'm not removing your post or saying it can't exist. I'm commenting as a poster, not as a moderator.
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,734
Reaction score
1,347
Gya I'd like your pro take on this. This represents my current understanding of the blood choke effect. The intro talks about the importance of the vagus to homeostasis. The rest goes into detail about how compression to that particular nerve has immediate consequences.

I'm no MD but this article lines up with my experiences.


That Russian judo book said the same thing.
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
22,667
Reaction score
8,306
Location
Pueblo West, CO
actually i never suggested using it instead of CPR. read it again
obviously you never understood my post properly.
read,think,reply..
You stated that doing these things would be better than nothing. It's not. It's the same thing as doing nothing.
CPR vs traditional Kappo resuscitation techniques is kind of a false choice. CPR is for when someone's heart isn't beating.
Not really. The "P" is for Pulmonary. It's for cardiac arrest, respiratory arrest, or choking. The abdominal thrusts they show in that video were, at one time, used to ventilate someone. I think it was in the same time period as bleeding and leaches as a treatment for pretty much any complaint. There are very good reasons why that is not how we teach ventilation these days...

I'm not aware of anyone claiming that Kappo methods will restart the heart. Rather they seem to be aimed at reviving someone who is unconscious and isn't waking up immediately.
They won't do that, either.

Of course, if the person is breathing and their heart is beating and they haven't suffered some sort of brain injury, then they will probably recover consciousness on their own anyway, so the resuscitation techniques probably won't make much difference either way. Best to just turn them on their side so that if they start to puke they won't choke on their own vomit.
Exactly. If they need CPR, do CPR. If not, don't do the things shown in that video.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,064
Reaction score
7,732
why teach them in martial arts, not just at the Kodokan? in Chinese & japanese martial arts.
If someone is chocking in a restaurant is it scientific proven to do this? have people been doing this for 100s of years?

Abdominal thrusts
  1. Stand behind the person who's choking.
  2. Place your arms around their waist and bend them forward.
  3. Clench 1 fist and place it right above their belly button.
  4. Put the other hand on top of your fist and pull sharply inwards and upwards.
  5. Repeat this movement up to 5 times.

That is a different kind of choke.
 
Top