dangers of the choke?

bradlee

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Hi I'm more of a karate guy but , i have learned many chokes.
The judo and jujutsu guys are the masters of the choke.
I love the choke i think its a peaceful way of ending a violet situation.
I know you have a air choke and a blood choke and i have learned that
The air choke is more dangerous then then blood choke.
What are some peoples insight on on the dangers?
 

myusername

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My chief instructor distinguishes what you refer to the blood choke and air choke as a Strangle (blood choke) and a Choke (air choke). I wouldn't say that either are a peaceful way of ending a conflict for real as they will result in a great deal of struggle (from the person being choked/strangled perspective they will be fighting for their life.) A strangle would probably be quicker as it results in a sudden drop in blood pressure and the person passing out. However, I can imagine the Choke being quite a dreadful thing to witness. Have you ever seen anyone having an asthma attack and gasping for air? I'm not saying I wouldn't use them if I needed in a self defence situation but I would never consider them peaceful. Also, make sure you know your recovery position and have resuscitation skills.

As for dangers. I have been told that holding on a strangle for 3 minutes or longer can result in brain death. I have also been informed that if a trachea is collapsed there will be no recovery.

I like to include a relevant article from my chief instructor Kevin O'Hagan when I can which will go into what I have just written in more depth.....http://www.kevinohagan.com/Webpages/Pages/Articles_Self_lightsout.htm
 
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bradlee

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i think i mean peaceful as compared to pounding his head though the pavement thanks for the insight
 

jks9199

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I would disagree with the relative dangers of blood versus air chokes. A blood choke will take the person out very quickly, and if you keep it on very much longer than the time it takes to pass out, the person's suffering brain damage. An air choke, assuming you don't actually do severe damage to the trachea, takes much longer, and doesn't immediately deprive the brain of oxygen. Note that there are variants of the blood chokes/sleeper holds, also known as Lateral Vascular Restraint or Carotid Restraints, that are actually taught and endorsed by some law enforcement agencies.
 

seasoned

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I would disagree with the relative dangers of blood versus air chokes. A blood choke will take the person out very quickly, and if you keep it on very much longer than the time it takes to pass out, the person's suffering brain damage. An air choke, assuming you don't actually do severe damage to the trachea, takes much longer, and doesn't immediately deprive the brain of oxygen. Note that there are variants of the blood chokes/sleeper holds, also known as Lateral Vascular Restraint or Carotid Restraints, that are actually taught and endorsed by some law enforcement agencies.

10 to 12 seconds if you hit the right spot. I took a willing
Volunteer from my karate class years ago to demonstrate a blood choke on. Coming under his extended right arm, I placed my right shoulder into his right arm pit and put my right forearm along the lift side of his neck, palm down. With my lift forearm against his back I clasped my hands together. Because he was very big I held on very tight while I explained the technique. Because I was not expecting it, and to my astonishment, when I let go, he dropped like a lead balloon. By the time he hit the deck he came to, but needed to be helped to his feet. The class and I got a good idea how the blood choke worked. The volunteer of course didnt know what hit him, or squeezed him that is.
 

SA_BJJ

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10 to 12 seconds if you hit the right spot. I took a willing
Volunteer from my karate class years ago to demonstrate a blood choke on. Coming under his extended right arm, I placed my right shoulder into his right arm pit and put my right forearm along the lift side of his neck, palm down. With my lift forearm against his back I clasped my hands together. Because he was very big I held on very tight while I explained the technique. Because I was not expecting it, and to my astonishment, when I let go, he dropped like a lead balloon. By the time he hit the deck he came to, but needed to be helped to his feet. The class and I got a good idea how the blood choke worked. The volunteer of course didnt know what hit him, or squeezed him that is.
Its not smart to want to get choked unconscious.
 

jarrod

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saw a study several years ago where a guy had volunteered to be choked out repeatedly & have his brain function studied. short version was that so long as you don't crush the caratoid or hold the choke well after they are out, they're fine.

jf
 

matt.m

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In a self defense situation use a blood choke, not a trachea choke. Blood chokes are immensely effective for "Helping" aggressive attackers settle down so to speak.

There are so many ways to perform these techniques. Unless you are being attacked and are certain you are in imminent danger performing a trachea choke will more times than not make you look like the aggressor. Blood choke = put them out and they revive slowly.......a trachea choke = you have to more likely than not give them a tracheaoctmy on the spot. It only takes a few pounds of pressure to cave in a wind pipe.
 

Drac

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Note that there are variants of the blood chokes/sleeper holds, also known as Lateral Vascular Restraint or Carotid Restraints, that are actually taught and endorsed by some law enforcement agencies.

Yep..We were taught the LVR by a Judo Master while in school for our instructor certifications, and everyone had it done on them...
 

punisher73

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Chokes are great for getting charged with attempted murder. Seriously, before you decide to use one check with your local prosecutor and state laws to see how they define it's use.

In Michigan and many other states, LEO's can ONLY use the LVR in a deadly force situation. Remember in the legal sense, it is what the "victim" believes you intended. That is why if you rob a bank with a fake gun it is the same charge as if you used a real one. The victim believed s/he was being threatened with death. This can quickly turn your situation against you in a court of law.

I agree that it can be a quick and easy way to end it. But, to claim self-defense you can only use EQUAL force to protect yourself.
 

Carter86

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i got choked by my instructor during the class time. he used blood choke method first and i 'blacked out' within 4-5 seconds. then he did throat choke to stop me from breathing and it took about 8-10 secs for me to tap out. i think blood choke is more dangerous because a person can pass out faster although throat choke was more painful.
 

MarkBarlow

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Its not smart to want to get choked unconscious.

Depends on the situation and who is doing the choking. I've been choked out at least 20 times over the past 30+ years and I'm no more addled than when I started. I think it's important for students to be choked out so they can understand what uke/opponent is experiencing. We require all students to be choked out before they can use chokes in randori.
 

jarrod

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i was at a grappling show one time where a guy didn't tap to a choke & went out. he was okay, but he peed all over himself.

jf
 

jks9199

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i was at a grappling show one time where a guy didn't tap to a choke & went out. he was okay, but he peed all over himself.

jf
I hope a doctor checked him; that's a clue that he was REALLY out... like deep brain out. If someone's losing control of their bowels or vomiting after any sort of unconsciousness, they need proper medical evaluation.
 

jarrod

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i'm sure he's fine...i saw he working as a greeter at wal-mart the other day :uhyeah:

jf
 

Jonny Figgis

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i got choked by my instructor during the class time. he used blood choke method first and i 'blacked out' within 4-5 seconds. then he did throat choke to stop me from breathing and it took about 8-10 secs for me to tap out. i think blood choke is more dangerous because a person can pass out faster although throat choke was more painful.

We do this kind of training also. We would perform strangles in a seated position and the person being strangled has one arm raised in the air. When we see the arm lowering, we know they are going out...then we release the pressure. It is a dangerous practice and you have to be in a very controlled environment. The choke is a horrible sensation and a lot of panic can set in; did for me the first time it was performed on me. We have worked the strangles to unconsciousness but don't do this all the time but back in the day it was a frequent occurence in classes around the world.

It is important to feel what it's like to be strangled or choked as nothing beats first hand experience to get a full understanding of the technique. Much like being hit, getting the brain shook or being knocked out from a strike. An interesting topic for sure.
 

jtweymo

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It might be interesting also to consider that there's other forms of choking than what usually gets mentioned...

there's what some schools call "Itteki jime" and this involves a sort of plucking strike to the adam's apple. It's meant to inhibit the ability to speak and to complicate breathing by the convulsive reaction of the muscles of the throat when 'plucked' like this.

And then there's 'Itami jime' which is to wretch the flesh alongside the neck (it's a pain tactic.)

Kinda expands the definition of 'jime-waza' a little bit.
 

Saitama Steve

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It might be interesting also to consider that there's other forms of choking than what usually gets mentioned...

there's what some schools call "Itteki jime" and this involves a sort of plucking strike to the adam's apple. It's meant to inhibit the ability to speak and to complicate breathing by the convulsive reaction of the muscles of the throat when 'plucked' like this.

And then there's 'Itami jime' which is to wretch the flesh alongside the neck (it's a pain tactic.)

Kinda expands the definition of 'jime-waza' a little bit.

Your "itteki jime" as you describe it sounds more like an atemi to a kyusho, rather than a proper shime-waza.
 

jtweymo

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Saitama Steve said: Your "itteki jime" as you describe it sounds more like an atemi to a kyusho, rather than a proper shime-waza.

I could certainly see why one might say so. But it's actually much more akin to a strangulation. It's 一擲 meaning 'to Cast off or away'? Something like that. It's not really a strike to the throat, it's more like a slap with the fingertips across the adam's apple. The man's body is sort of pushed back sharply when you do it, a kuzure for the hand throw that follows. It's much more like doing a quick strangle against the adam's apple with your fingertips.

The idea is basically that one applies pressure to the throat from the side or the rear in the usual strangulations but in this case it's done from the front.

The omote henka is to dip the first three fingers into matsukaze (the hollow at the bottom of the throat) and shove him backwards. This is fairly well known version of the technique that gets practiced even in karate but I dunno what they call it?

The Ura henka for it differs: one grabs the sleeve near the elbow and pulls him into a forearm being thrust up into the adam's apple, not a strike as much as 'running up into' the adam's apple. Then he's wheeled backwards and down.

I can see why it sounds like a strike [ but it's really not.]
 

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