Are there too many kicks in TSD?

[Kaygee]

Then, bluntly, you're doing it wrong. Roundhouses are very quick kicks, when done properly. Look at my avatar. That's one of those "slow" roundhouses. After using an "impractical" hook kick to move his hands out of the way. Against someone 30 years younger than me. Nope, not an effective kick at ALL...



If you did this, you wouldn't be using a crescent kick. You'd be using an AXE kick.



That says more about you than the effectiveness of the inside crescent kick. Here's one very easy example. Close to punching range. Get in a couple hard shots to the body to bring their guard down a bit. Now throw an outside to inside crescent kick to their head. It's fast. It's outside their line of site for most of the kick (if they don't see it, they don't block it...). And it's strong. The problem isn't with the kick, it's with your understanding.



Bill Wallace would strongly disagree with you...

Incidentially, how did you win this tournament a couple weeks ago? Weren't you just telling us that you'd left your TSD school for an MMA gym and just returned to TSD after the gym raised their prices? Did you compete in a TSD tourney while you were training at the MMA gym?



Again, the problem is not with the kicks, it's with your understanding. Perhaps you need to spend more time focusing on basics until you "get" it.



I think you are probably right.



What's a corroded artery? One in need of a stent?
While you're telling us about your enthusiasm for this technique, tell us exactly what you think would be accomplished by it. I suspect, from this and your other postings, that this enthusiasm comes without actual experience in the techniques. That enthusiasm is good, but without an understanding of the basics (those same basics of which you're so dismissive above) you'll never be able to use advanced techniques effectively.

________________________________

Wow....a lot of hate geared towards me in that comment, Dirty Dog. But, whatever makes you feel better I guess.

Then, bluntly, you're doing it wrong. Roundhouses are very quick kicks, when done properly. Look at my avatar. That's one of those "slow" roundhouses. After using an "impractical" hook kick to move his hands out of the way. Against someone 30 years younger than me. Nope, not an effective kick at ALL...

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, we were taught this kick differently?

If you did this, you wouldn't be using a crescent kick. You'd be using an AXE kick.

We do not distginuish between an "axe kick" or a "crescent kick" in my school. That is exactly why I said, and I quote "Crescent Kick? I think this is what we call an inside-outside kick in my TSD. If so= Keep"

"Incidentially, how did you win this tournament a couple weeks ago? Weren't you just telling us that you'd left your TSD school for an MMA gym and just returned to TSD after the gym raised their prices? Did you compete in a TSD tourney while you were training at the MMA gym?"

I won that tournament October 6th, 2012. I quit TSD on October 18th, 2012. I meant to type a couple of MONTHS ago, instead of a couple of weeks ago. Thank you for your concern though.

The rest of the negative comments that you sent my way, I will just sum it up in one sentence: My response was my opinion, which is the same as everyone else gives around here! Stop hating on me, life is too short and I am done fighting with people that follow me around from post to post dogging my posts and breaking them apart in an effort to discredit my opinion. Try to avoid taking this thread off course because of your personal feelings toward me.

Thank you! :lurk:

 

[Tez3]

An axe kick is very different from a crescent kick.
In TSD an outside to inside kick is the same as a crescent kick.

 

[Kaygee]

An axe kick is very different from a crescent kick.
In TSD an outside to inside kick is the same as a crescent kick.

Oh, ok. So Inside-Outside kick is also known as an Axe Kick and an outside-inside kick is also known as a crescent kick.

Got it. I see all four descriptions being thrown around a lot and never knew what kick was associated with what, so the clarification is appreciated!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Wow....a lot of hate geared towards me in that comment, Dirty Dog. But, whatever makes you feel better I guess.

No hate whatsoever. I just think your posts show a lack of understanding of the arts, and you'd be well served by trying to fix that lack.

Then, bluntly, you're doing it wrong. Roundhouses are very quick kicks, when done properly. Look at my avatar. That's one of those "slow" roundhouses. After using an "impractical" hook kick to move his hands out of the way. Against someone 30 years younger than me. Nope, not an effective kick at ALL...

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, we were taught this kick differently?

Let's see. I study in a school descended from GGM Hwang Kee. I've got books written by GGM Hwang Kee that confirm that we're doing our kicks the way he taught. You study in a school descended from GGM Hwang Kee.
No, I do not think it likely that you've been taught this kick differently. You may be DOING it differently (if you think it's slow, then you almost certainly ARE), but that goes back to point #1 above.

If you did this, you wouldn't be using a crescent kick. You'd be using an AXE kick.

We do not distginuish between an "axe kick" or a "crescent kick" in my school. That is exactly why I said, and I quote "Crescent Kick? I think this is what we call an inside-outside kick in my TSD. If so= Keep"

Then either your teacher or you lack understanding. And I really think it's more likely you than your teacher. By 2nd geup, you certainly ought to know the difference between a crescent kick and an axe kick. Our 9th geups do. TSD has always differentiated between these two kicks. I would encourage you to ask your teacher about these two very different kicks. It's his job to help you understand, and I am sure he'll be happy to do so.

"Incidentially, how did you win this tournament a couple weeks ago? Weren't you just telling us that you'd left your TSD school for an MMA gym and just returned to TSD after the gym raised their prices? Did you compete in a TSD tourney while you were training at the MMA gym?"

I won that tournament October 6th, 2012. I quit TSD on October 18th, 2012. I meant to type a couple of MONTHS ago, instead of a couple of weeks ago. Thank you for your concern though.

That would certainly explain it. Big difference between a couple weeks and a couple months. LOL

The rest of the negative comments that you sent my way, I will just sum it up in one sentence: My response was my opinion, which is the same as everyone else gives around here! Stop hating on me, life is too short and I am done fighting with people that follow me around from post to post dogging my posts and breaking them apart in an effort to discredit my opinion. Try to avoid taking this thread off course because of your personal feelings toward me.

Thank you! :lurk:

I don't have any personal feelings toward you. This is, in case you hadn't noticed, a public forum. That means that when you post anything, people get to agree or disagree. And they get to post WHY they agree or disagree, if they choose to. And if you post opinions that show ignorance of things you really ought to know (such as the difference between an axe kick and a crescent kick) people will point that out. If you post things that are patently wrong (such as claiming a roundhouse is slow) people will point that out.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Oh, ok. So Inside-Outside kick is also known as an Axe Kick and an outside-inside kick is also known as a crescent kick.

Got it. I see all four descriptions being thrown around a lot and never knew what kick was associated with what, so the clarification is appreciated!

Not really. A crescent kick can be done in either direction - inside to outside or outside to inside. The point of contact will be the edge of the foot, with impact being at the peak of the crescent, with the foot moving laterally.

An axe kick can also be done inside to outside or outside to inside, but the impact is DOWN and the point of contact is either the heel or ball of the foot.

 

[Kaygee]

Not really. A crescent kick can be done in either direction - inside to outside or outside to inside. The point of contact will be the edge of the foot, with impact being at the peak of the crescent, with the foot moving laterally.

An axe kick can also be done inside to outside or outside to inside, but the impact is DOWN and the point of contact is either the heel or ball of the foot.

Well, as you can see, I was confused as to what was what, but, in my post, I was referring to the kick that has the impact come down, which would hit the opponent that is bent over in the back or the back of the head (with your heel).
Just curious, how does one get the ball of their foot to strike with the impact coming down like that? Do you have to twist your body and perform something like a downward roundhouse?

 

[Tez3]

Oh, ok. So Inside-Outside kick is also known as an Axe Kick and an outside-inside kick is also known as a crescent kick.

Got it. I see all four descriptions being thrown around a lot and never knew what kick was associated with what, so the clarification is appreciated!

No, an axe kick is an axe kick, a crescent kick a crescent kick. The TSD out to in kick is the same as the crescent kick not the axe kick.

An axe kick is the knee bent and the leg comes straight up then down hitting with the heel. It's a straight up and down kick. That's karate axe kick

A crescent kick is the leg swinging from the outside to the inside (or inside to out) hitting with the side of the foot, as in a 'crescent' shape. 'Crescent' is karate name, 'outside to insinde and inside to out' is a TSD name.

To confuse things, as in TSD, some will do an axe kick by swinging their leg out as in the crescent kick but the strike is still a heel one.

I've just seen that Dirty Dog has beaten me to it, he is correct of course.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, as you can see, I was confused as to what was what, but, in my post, I was referring to the kick that has the impact come down, which would hit the opponent that is bent over in the back or the back of the head (with your heel).
Just curious, how does one get the ball of their foot to strike with the impact coming down like that? Do you have to twist your body and perform something like a downward roundhouse?

Be further away. Push the ball of the foot forward. The heel moves in front of the target and the ball of the foot hits it. A lot of sparring axe kicks are done this way. Most breaking axe kicks are done with the heel.
Same thing applies to hook kicks, which can also impact with either the heel or the ball of the foot.

 

[Tez3]

Not really. A crescent kick can be done in either direction - inside to outside or outside to inside. The point of contact will be the edge of the foot, with impact being at the peak of the crescent, with the foot moving laterally.

An axe kick can also be done inside to outside or outside to inside, but the impact is DOWN and the point of contact is either the heel or ball of the foot.

My instructor who originally came from Shotokan does it this way, he has long legs and it suits him ( Shotokan being the 'big persons style lol), I'm from Wado Ryu ( the smaller persons style) originally and being smaller bend my knee, lift it and strike straight down. In the TSD we do now either is fine. I use my heel as I find it easier but it's certainly good using the ball of the foot.


There are far less kicks in TSD than there are in Wado Ryu.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My instructor who originally came from Shotokan does it this way, he has long legs and it suits him ( Shotokan being the 'big persons style lol), I'm from Wado Ryu ( the smaller persons style) originally and being smaller bend my knee, lift it and strike straight down. In the TSD we do now either is fine. I use my heel as I find it easier but it's certainly good using the ball of the foot.


There are far less kicks in TSD than there are in Wado Ryu.

I think ball vs heel comes down to two factors: range and intent. At longer range, striking with the ball of the foot gives you a little more reach (how much more would vary widely, of course. A size 10 foot will give more reach than a 4, and a more flexible ankle will let you "reach" out further). Striking with the heel delivers more power, so is better for breaks (either boards or clavicles...).

I've seen axe kicks done by bending the knee and bringing the leg straight up the middle, but I have never cared for it. Possibly because I'm bigger than you (6'1") but also because it seems a little slower, since you have to bring the kick up, stop the momentum, and then bring it down, vs merely altering the direction of the momentum.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

And if you post opinions that show ignorance of things you really ought to know (such as the difference between an axe kick and a crescent kick) people will point that out.

To be fair to Kaygee, it sounds not so much that he doesn't understand the kick, as that his instructors use different terminology, so he's confused by the terminology on a forum, where its sometimes tough to describe and understand movements/kicks in written word. The rest of the things you said, especially the roundhouse kick and the spinning kick, I agree with, just specified the crescent/axe since you seem to be doting on that.

Also, it may be his understanding of the kicks, but I think (and I may be wrong) that his personal style (not TSD, but the way he spars, trains etc.) does not realistically use those kicks often, and hes never fought a formidable person using the kicks.That could easily make him think they are not realistic, and cant really be changed by a forum, he would have to see it in real life to truly realize they are formidable.

To sum up, his difference is in terminology and experience, one is not a bad thing, and the other one will be fixed through time, not through posts on a forum.

Also, after all the hate towards him in the other thread, you dissecting/correcting every thing he said could very easily be perceived as hate, even if you didn't mean it to come out that way.

 

[Tez3]

I think ball vs heel comes down to two factors: range and intent. At longer range, striking with the ball of the foot gives you a little more reach (how much more would vary widely, of course. A size 10 foot will give more reach than a 4, and a more flexible ankle will let you "reach" out further). Striking with the heel delivers more power, so is better for breaks (either boards or clavicles...).

I've seen axe kicks done by bending the knee and bringing the leg straight up the middle, but I have never cared for it. Possibly because I'm bigger than you (6'1") but also because it seems a little slower, since you have to bring the kick up, stop the momentum, and then bring it down, vs merely altering the direction of the momentum.

You're the same height as my instructor, I'm merely 5'4" :boing1:, I find it easier to bring my leg straight up and down, I don't seem to stop the momentum if I think about it, it sort of just comes down, gravity probably lol. I can bring it up and round a la crescent kick but that seems slower to me, it's just what you practice I suppose and what's easier for you.

 

[Tez3]

Just checking up how many kicks in TSD and I noticed that the outside to inside kick is described as a 'blocking' kick rather than a 'striking' kick.

 

[Makalakumu]

Just checking up how many kicks in TSD and I noticed that the outside to inside kick is described as a 'blocking' kick rather than a 'striking' kick.

I use it to check the legs of a kicking opponent all of the time!

 

[Kaygee]

To be fair to Kaygee, it sounds not so much that he doesn't understand the kick, as that his instructors use different terminology, so he's confused by the terminology on a forum, where its sometimes tough to describe and understand movements/kicks in written word. The rest of the things you said, especially the roundhouse kick and the spinning kick, I agree with, just specified the crescent/axe since you seem to be doting on that.

Also, it may be his understanding of the kicks, but I think (and I may be wrong) that his personal style (not TSD, but the way he spars, trains etc.) does not realistically use those kicks often, and hes never fought a formidable person using the kicks.That could easily make him think they are not realistic, and cant really be changed by a forum, he would have to see it in real life to truly realize they are formidable.

To sum up, his difference is in terminology and experience, one is not a bad thing, and the other one will be fixed through time, not through posts on a forum.

Also, after all the hate towards him in the other thread, you dissecting/correcting every thing he said could very easily be perceived as hate, even if you didn't mean it to come out that way.

Thank you! You hit everything from my perspective pretty much head one!

 

[Kaygee]

Just checking up how many kicks in TSD and I noticed that the outside to inside kick is described as a 'blocking' kick rather than a 'striking' kick.

I think you are correct! These forms are damn near close to exactly the way I am taught them and if you watch Pyong-Ahn Sam Dan at:

http://www.natkd.com/pyong_ahn_forms.htm

The three outside inside kicks he throws followed with a block and a hammer fist, look pretty much like blocks to me.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think you are correct! These forms are damn near close to exactly the way I am taught them and if you watch Pyong-Ahn Sam Dan at:

http://www.natkd.com/pyong_ahn_forms.htm

The three outside inside kicks he throws followed with a block and a hammer fist, look pretty much like blocks to me.

Here's an option that makes more sense to me.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=gc92VRQeXCs&desktop_uri=/watch?v=gc92VRQeXCs

 

[Tez3]

I think you are correct! These forms are damn near close to exactly the way I am taught them and if you watch Pyong-Ahn Sam Dan at:

http://www.natkd.com/pyong_ahn_forms.htm

The three outside inside kicks he throws followed with a block and a hammer fist, look pretty much like blocks to me.

He does it more or less the same way as we do, only little differences. It's a shoulder block and a back fist. I agree though, they are blocks but I also think they are put in to make it more TSDish. The 'form' comes from karate and has been altered to make it more Korean. The kicks/blocks aren't there in the Shotokan and Wado katas.

My preference is for Wado I must admit, for many reasons not least for the kata.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think you are correct! These forms are damn near close to exactly the way I am taught them and if you watch Pyong-Ahn Sam Dan at:

http://www.natkd.com/pyong_ahn_forms.htm

The three outside inside kicks he throws followed with a block and a hammer fist, look pretty much like blocks to me.

All blocks are strikes, and all strikes are blocks. Don't falsely limit a technique.

 

[Tez3]

Here's an option that makes more sense to me.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=gc92VRQeXCs&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dgc92VRQeXCs

I clicked on and it came up quite weird so couldn't watch it.

I do think that while it says in the book they are blocks you can use them how you need to, They look ungainly in the TSD katas though, ( they are also used in the TSD Bassai to even worse effect)