Are the sweeps used in free sparring in any kata?

Flying Crane

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Where do sweeps in Shotokan and Goju Ryu sparring come from if it's not directly from a Kata?
I’ve never seen a system where the entire curriculum is found within the body of kata. Every system Ive ever trained had lots of material that was not contained in kata.

From where do you get this notion?
 
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I’ve never seen a system where the entire curriculum is found within the body of kata. Every system Ive ever trained had lots of material that was not contained in kata.

From where do you get this notion?

It's not in the Shotokan instructional book I have either. Not even a mention of sweeps
 

Flying Crane

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It's not in the Shotokan instructional book I have either. Not even a mention of sweeps
Why is that a problem? Why would you expect a karate instructional manual to contain the entire curriculum?

Are you learning karate from a book?
 

dancingalone

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I’ve never seen a system where the entire curriculum is found within the body of kata. Every system Ive ever trained had lots of material that was not contained in kata.

Another alternative view is that the system is found in the kata, but due to stylization and the intention of the same movement having multiple meanings, it can be impossible to ferret out exclusively by just training solo kata. You need other drills, preferably with a partner and a teacher versed in the method to bring it out.

Another hint for those interested: look at the Motobu partner kumite drills.
 

Flying Crane

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Another alternative view is that the system is found in the kata, but due to stylization and the intention of the same movement having multiple meanings, it can be impossible to ferret out exclusively by just training solo kata. You need other drills, preferably with a partner and a teacher versed in the method to bring it out.

Another hint for those interested: look at the Motobu partner kumite drills.
Sure, of course. But those other drills you mention are not strictly kata either. So right there, there is more in the system that what is in kata.
 

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Sure, of course. But those other drills you mention are not strictly kata either. So right there, there is more in the system that what is in kata.

They are kata. The movements with your partner are prearranged, at least at the first levels of practice. The movements are also found in the solo kata, just idealized and formalized so it may not "look" the same.
 
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They are kata. The movements with your partner are prearranged, at least at the first levels of practice. The movements are also found in the solo kata, just idealized and formalized so it may not "look" the same.

Are there kata applications in Gishin Funakoshis Karate-Do book?
 

Flying Crane

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They are kata. The movements with your partner are prearranged, at least at the first levels of practice. The movements are also found in the solo kata, just idealized and formalized so it may not "look" the same.
Ok fair enough. I’m not a karate guy so I’m not gonna try to pretend expertise I don’t have. However, I do hold to my original post: I’ve never experienced a style that was entirely in the forms. There was always material and techniques that you didn’t find in the forms.
 

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Are there kata applications in Gishin Funakoshis Karate-Do book?

Not in my recollection. I can't check right now because I am not at my dojo. The Oshima translation has the Funakoshi's 9 throws in it.
 

dancingalone

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There was always material and techniques that you didn’t find in the forms.
Absolutely. You need a good sensei to unlock the system. It is impossible to write everything into kata.

And then there is the issue of information being lost or changed especially if you practice a style that has been refined from an older style. Like Kanawaza karate vs. Kyan karate. The kata changed over time. You can glean quite a lot by going back to Kyan kata if you practice Shotokan and watch their form applications. It doesn't mean you have to switch styles...just look at their stuff with a discerning eye.
 

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You can glean quite a lot by going back to Kyan kata if you practice Shotokan and watch their form applications. It doesn't mean you have to switch styles...just look at their stuff with a discerning eye.
I find there is a lot to learn about an art, if you start at the beginning of its history, and follow the changes made. Who made them, and why will tell you a lot. Understanding the founders intentions, will help you understand the changes made along the way. To get even more understanding, go back to the roots of your system, the arts the founder studied before making his own thing. There is so much to learn if you look.

I would be happy to keep answering the OPs posts... but I feel he has me on ignore... so I won't bother.
 

dancingalone

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I would be happy to keep answering the OPs posts... but I feel he has me on ignore... so I won't bother.

I like him as a conversation starter, but it's hard to discuss things seriously with him. He is so tunnel-visioned. I think I will mainly try to use his posts as a way to discuss MA with everyone else, not necessarily him, if that makes sense.
 
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Not in my recollection. I can't check right now because I am not at my dojo. The Oshima translation has the Funakoshi's 9 throws in it.

But what are the 9 throws of Funakoshi related to in the Shotokan curriculum?
 

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But what are the 9 throws of Funakoshi related to in the Shotokan curriculum?

I recommend finding a good school and teacher. You don't really want to heard it from random internet people anyway.
 
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There are other peculiar facts about Shotokan kata such as the absence of a standing mawashi geri, even though there is a lying down one.

Mawashi geri clearly existed by the time Gishin made his forms, but was not put into the kata as a standing technique for whatever reason.
 
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Are sweeps banned in the old school JKA rule set?

I haven't watched the entire clip but they stopped in the clinch

 

Flying Crane

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I like him as a conversation starter, but it's hard to discuss things seriously with him. He is so tunnel-visioned. I think I will mainly try to use his posts as a way to discuss MA with everyone else, not necessarily him, if that makes sense.
A spring board!
 

isshinryuronin

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OK so that covers Goju. Still wonder why Shotokan has it.
Shotokan has its roots in Okinawan style since the 1920's. Most of their katas are adaptations of the Okinawan's, with new Japanese names.
Your video does show sweeps and accompanying hand motion, you just do not recognize it. This is why there are Sensei's. Also, Shotokan katas are more stylized than the Okinawan's, so the meaning of some moves may be harder for the untrained observer to discern. There is a lot more going on in kata than blocks, kicks, turns and punches. Why not take lessons, Acronym. It seems you have a keen interest in it.
 

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