Are the sweeps used in free sparring in any kata?

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A

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Shotokan has its roots in Okinawan style since the 1920's. Most of their katas are adaptations of the Okinawan's, with new Japanese names.
Your video does show sweeps and accompanying hand motion, you just do not recognize it. This is why there are Sensei's. Also, Shotokan katas are more stylized than the Okinawan's, so the meaning of some moves may be harder for the untrained observer to discern. There is a lot more going on in kata than blocks, kicks, turns and punches. Why not take lessons, Acronym. It seems you have a keen interest in it.

But the JKA rules states that grabbing is not allowed, and he grabbed even with two hands and swept. Are there multiple JKA organisations?
 

drop bear

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OK.

For anyone else interested in the topic, do your research. It's true you have to follow a certain training methodology and progression path with partner drills before you see things. It's not for everyone - those needing a literal translation, I suggest just training without kata and forms and going straight to a fighting gym.

I did the research and it is not the case.

Sorry no sweeps.

Of course if you wanted to support your statement with evidence you are welcome to.
 

dancingalone

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I did the research and it is not the case.

Sorry no sweeps.

Of course if you wanted to support your statement with evidence you are welcome to.

You are saying karate-ka do not train sweeps and do not regard it as a cataloged move in their kata?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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You are saying karate-ka do not train sweeps and do not regard it as a cataloged move in their kata?
Even if a technique may not be in the form, at least the principle should be in the form.

The foot sweep requires 2 opposite direction forces. That means your upper body has to turn into one direction while your low body has to turn into the opposite direction.

Can you point out in your form that this principle is trained?

Lin-sweep-1.gif
 
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dancingalone

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Even if a technique may not be in the form, at least the principle should be in the form.

The foot sweep requires 2 opposite direction forces. That means your upper body has to turn into one direction while your low body has to turn into the opposite direction.

Can you point out in your form that this principle is trained?

Sure. Let me state however that the form can be misleading to some viewers because the lower body and upper body actions do not necessarily occur at the same time in the solo kata. Some will take that as evidence that the move is not a sweep. I would argue the form is a catalog and it requires practice and study where you learn over time the form is the form and the application is the application. The two can coincide - they can also not. It takes study to see it.

I'll just pull random forms from Youtube - I am not carefully selecting by style or school because it doesn't matter for my purposes.

In the Naihanchi Shodan form, look at :22. There is the leg action and then a second later, the hand movement.


In Gekisai Dai Ni (Dai Ichi is almost the same - I just grabbed the first one I saw) look at :30. There is a small foot/leg movement before the 'chop'.


And here is some sweep instruction in isolation. I will let the viewer decide if they think it is in the kata or not. Ultimately it matters not. You don't need the form to train things. Actually, it's better to do it with a partner always. The form is a catalog and for when you have to train alone.

 

Kung Fu Wang

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In the Naihanchi Shodan form, look at :22. There is the leg action and then a second later, the hand movement. ... at :30. There is a small foot/leg movement before the 'chop'.
I don't think these 2 clips are good examples.

- Hand pull back and foot sweep forward is missing.
- Any foot movement is not foot sweep. Use instep to sweep behind ankle, or use inner edge to sweep in front of the foot is also missing.

Someone told me that the Taiji system has foot sweep. I asked him to prove it. He said that Taiji has outside crescent kick that can be used as a foot sweep. IMO, the outside crescent kick and foot sweep require different training.

A: Does the WC system have foot sweep?
B: Yes. My WC system have foot sweep.
A: It's not in those 3 WC forms.
B: It's in the training.
A: Can you show me the "upper body turn into one direction while the low body turn into the opposite direction" training?
B: ...

This same subject had been discussed among many different MA systems in the past.
 
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Flying Crane

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Just as an FYI, I’ve seen Shaolin forms with sweeps in them.
I don’t know where my brain was, but we have sweeps in our forms in Tibetan White Crane. I can’t believe I didn’t note that instantly.

I know, it’s not karate, it’s not shotokan, it’s not shotokan under a specific organization and lineage as found in a book in the bowels of the Smithsonian. But it’s an example.
 

dancingalone

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I don't think these 2 clips are good examples.

Alas I doubt I can give you much video linking the formal kata with the technique. It is what it is. That is the nature of it. If we want outright relationships to show that karate is a close range striking system with some grappling within it, we would have to invent new kata.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Alas I doubt I can give you much video linking the formal kata with the technique. It is what it is. That is the nature of it. If we want outright relationships to show that karate is a close range striking system with some grappling within it, we would have to invent new kata.
It is a good idea to add the foot sweep into your form. This way, your next Karate generation won't have to go through the same argument as we have today.
 

dancingalone

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It is a good idea to add the foot sweep into your form. This way, your next Karate generation won't have to go through the same argument as we have today.

Maybe I already have. My foot motion when I run Gekisai Dai Ichi and Dai Ni is much bigger than what Enfield Sensei shows. When we work the application at my school, sometimes it is a stomp, sometimes a sweep, sometimes a stomp holding uke's foot to the ground while you hit him.

To me it's a bit of a weird point of contention anyway. Kata although a big part of karate is always only the singular part of the art. Even if you knew every open and hidden application within the forms, you still have to practice them with a partner under the supervision of a teacher to be able to use them eventually on a practical level. If we think it is in the form or not really is just minutiae to argue over.

But I understand your point and generally agree.
 
OP
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Yes.
Ask your sensei.

I asked the JKA rule-set instead and it explictly states that grabbing is prohibited.

I have no explanation for why a JKA event allowed it.
 
OP
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Taiji kaase had a heavy emphasis on pulls and sweeps but I don't think he was the majority in Shotokan.

Kaase came from a judo background.

 
OP
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H



Have a look at THIS POST where I had a similar discussion six years ago......and ask yourself why your teacher doesnt know.

I know. You're the same guy who claim judo has striking, even though it's prohibited in sparring and 99.9% of club are olympic Oriented
 

elder999

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I know. You're the same guy who claim judo has striking, even though it's prohibited in sparring and 99.9% of club are olympic Oriented

Because it does.
rolling.gif


1) There are strikes inherent (and sometimes concealed) in most of the throws in judo, "Olympic" or otherwise.
2) There are explicit strikes taught in the kata of judo.
3) If you've watched Olympic or any other high-level judo, you will see the judoka pummeling each other as they try to get a grip on each other.


The referees typically allow some latitude for this, and it's not unusual to take a pretty good punch or two on the head or chest.

Likewise, simply because the JKA rules prohibit "grabbing or clinching" doesn't necessarily mean that the referee won't allow some latitude in close situations....especially if they lead to an otherwise clean technique ,though I might not think that the first full on throw at 13 seconds in the video you showed would be allowed, the referee didn't see that he gripped with both hands.

Your question, though, was whether sweeps (and throws) are in the JKA kata, and the answer is, quite simply, yes.
 
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OP
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Because it does.
rolling.gif


1) There are strikes inherent (and sometimes concealed) in most of the throws in judo, "Olympic" or otherwise.
2) There are explicit strikes taught in the kata of judo.
3) If you've watched Olympic or any other high-level judo, you will see the judoka pummeling each other as they try to get a grip on each other.
.

Oh common. This is typical obfuscation attempt by traditional martial artists. Judo does not have any striking for all intents and purposes.

If it did, why did Kimura cross train in Shotokan Karate?
 

elder999

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Oh common. This is typical obfuscation attempt by traditional martial artists. Judo does not have any striking for all intents and purposes.

If it did, why did Kimura cross train in Shotokan Karate?

In his autobiography, My Judo, (no longer in print, sadly) Kimura says that he used karate as another form of tanren, that he did it to strengthen his hands, and to thusly improve his judo.

Here's a quote from an excerpt of Kimura's autobiography, found on this very useful webpage.

"One day, when I visited Karate Club of Takushoku University to see a karate practice, I noticed that everyone was punching with his thumb over the pointing finger and middle finger. I thought they were all doing so to prevent the thumb from getting jammed on impact. I came to a conclusion that if I practiced Makiwara karate strikes, I would be able to grab with 5 fingers in judo. As soon as I got home, I started Makiwara strikes. After I practiced it everyday for 3 months, I found my hands grabbing my opponent's dogi firmly with 5 fingers. I discovered many things only after I struck Makiwara. I had thought that those who are trained in judo have strong finger tips, elbow, wrists, and fists. But, when I actually struck the Makiwara, my finger tips, elbow, wrists, and fists all hurt numbingly. Such weak finger tips, elbow, wrists, and fists are useless in pulling the opponent or controlling the opponent using elbows or wrists. I therefore slammed these weak parts onto Makiwara and strengthened them in preparation for bouts. I struck Makiwara with knife hand, backhand, and thrust 4 fingers into a sand box. I did this 1000 times a day. In this way, I developed steel-like strong hands. Later on, I got interested in karate, and learned Shorinji-ryu (Note: today's Shotokan karate) under the guidance of Master Funakoshi for a little over 2 years."

And I'm hardly a traditional martial artist., though I do study traditional martial arts......anyway


 
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wab25

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Oh common. This is typical obfuscation attempt by traditional martial artists. Judo does not have any striking for all intents and purposes.
For someone so concerned with 1 to 1 relationships between kata and technique... you should really learn more about Judo.
Classification of Techniques in Kodokan Judo | Judo Info
All Judo techniques (wazas) are divided into the following groups:- Nage-waza (67 throwing techniques)
Katame-waza (29 grappling techniques)
Atemi-waza (22 striking techniques)The Nage-waza, Katame-waza and Atemi-waza are further divided into groups as follows:

Atemi-waza
(striking techniques)



Ashi-ate-waza
(leg)

Ushiro-geri *
Yoko-geri *
Naname-geri *
Mae-geri *
Taka-geri *
Ude-ate-waza
(arm)

Mae-ate * Ushiro-ate *
Kirioroshi *
Naname-uchi *
Naname-ate *
Yoko-ate *
Kami-ate *
Tsukiage *
Shimo-tsuki *
Ushiro-tsuki *
Ushiro-sumi-tsuki *
Tsukkake *
Yoko-uchi *
Ushiro-uchi *
Uchioroshi *
Tsukidashi *
Ryogan-tsuki *
The striking arts are in the actual Judo curriculum and kata... exactly as explained earlier.
 
OP
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The striking arts are in the actual Judo curriculum and kata... exactly as explained earlier.

Newsflash. Judo Is a sport these days, which was the founders vision. The sport does not encompass striking. Good luck finding a school that spends time on striking.
 

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