Are the sweeps used in free sparring in any kata?

drop bear

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I would agree though that Karate is idealistic and beautiful, whereas real fighting is dirty and rushed..

Both sides have their arguments, The truth is probably in the middle... It might work, sometimes...

Not if you are good at fighting.
 

Graywalker

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Ditto, untill I encountered people who understood the concepts of grappling. And then none of it worked.

And I am talking months. As soon as someone understood the basics it throws years of Bunkai out the window.
No not really, it helps you to understand them more. Throw them out if you wish, but you should throw ground work out, when it's understood that you can basically pick them up, and slam them into the concrete, while the have some archaic lock on your arm.

It works both ways.
 
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Not true. Karate katas operate on the same principle of using leverage and your entire body. If the kata has you landing a punch first and then twisting the arm, it has you using your entire body and leverage for the punch, and then it uses your entire body and leverage for the twist. .

Not so. The kata have you doing both things standing fairly square, you do sink into the arm twist ever so slightly but there is no full commitment. you twist and then immediately raise your center of gravity.back up. in the kata...
 

drop bear

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No not really, it helps you to understand them more. Throw them out if you wish, but you should throw ground work out, when it's understood that you can basically pick them up, and slam them into the concrete, while the have some archaic lock on your arm.

It works both ways.

You can't slam people if they understand how to do the lock. But this is regardless of the percentage success of the move and more the ability to develop the movement in to something you understand.

It is very rare you have bunkai drills that reflect reality. Because everything works in a drill.

Now you still need to drill to understand what you are doing. But situational sparring is better because it is bone with more realistic timing. Bunkai should reflect situational sparring. But it rarely does.
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This is primarly arm movement. If you are good enough to pull this off, then you don't need the grappling the first place

 

wab25

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Not so. The kata have you doing both things standing fairly square, you do sink into the arm twist ever so slightly but there is no full commitment. you twist and then immediately raise your center of gravity.back up. in the kata...
This has not been my experience with Karate. My Karate Sensei teaches full use of the body on the locks, throws and manipulations... as well as for the strikes. Same for the other Karate schools in the area that we train with. Maybe its your school that does not apply the body and leverage to these parts... in my opinion, they should.
 
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once again, arm movements as grappling maneuvers.. Try it on someone your size and strength...


 
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This has not been my experience with Karate. My Karate Sensei teaches full use of the body on the locks, throws and manipulations... as well as for the strikes. Same for the other Karate schools in the area that we train with. Maybe its your school that does not apply the body and leverage to these parts... in my opinion, they should.

I can't speak for his self defense curriculum. I can speak for the katas though, and none of them engage the entire body for the joint locking techniques.
 

Graywalker

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You can't slam people if they understand how to do the lock. But this is regardless of the percentage success of the move and more the ability to develop the movement in to something you understand.

It is very rare you have bunkai drills that reflect reality. Because everything works in a drill.

Now you still need to drill to understand what you are doing. But situational sparring is better because it is bone with more realistic timing. Bunkai should reflect situational sparring. But it rarely does.
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Your percentage of success, is mostly based on sport, where doing that technique, gives you, in most competitions, the safety net of that not being allowed.

I agree, with you on the understanding the technique in order for it to work, which is why you say they don't, bunkai that is, you really do not understand them.

Situational sparring, I agree with...but you seem to think that doesn't happen.

How long did you train bunkai, and with situational sparring?
 

drop bear

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This has not been my experience with Karate. My Karate Sensei teaches full use of the body on the locks, throws and manipulations... as well as for the strikes. Same for the other Karate schools in the area that we train with. Maybe its your school that does not apply the body and leverage to these parts... in my opinion, they should.

There is a nuance here in that the locks require a lot of details to really be applying good body mechanics.


So here with the Russian two on one. You could think you are applying your full body or think you are operating efficiently but you are not.

And for arm bars that is the difference between success and failure.
 

wab25

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This is primarly arm movement.
You are primarily focused on the arm movement. There is a lot more going on, besides just his arms. His foot work is more important than his arm work. His body work is more important than his foot work.
 

wab25

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I can speak for the katas though, and none of them engage the entire body for the joint locking techniques.
Again, that is not my experience with the katas. I have yet to find one that does not engage the entire body.
 
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Again, that is not my experience with the katas. I have yet to find one that does not engage the entire body.

I've just posted two, littered with arm grappling.
 

wab25

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There is a nuance here in that the locks require a lot of details to really be applying good body mechanics.
I agree. Thats why I said that randori, full resistance training is required. As are all kinds of other drills. Once you learn those nuanced details, you should study those details when you do your kata. Your kata should look different as you add in those details. As Funakoshi said, if all you ever do is kata, you will never learn to fight. But, I believe that if you learn to fight, kata can help you improve. Its not the only tool in the shed, but I have found it useful.
 

drop bear

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Your percentage of success, is mostly based on sport, where doing that technique, gives you, in most competitions, the safety net of that not being allowed.

I agree, with you on the understanding the technique in order for it to work, which is why you say they don't, bunkai that is, you really do not understand them.

Situational sparring, I agree with...but you seem to think that doesn't happen.

How long did you train bunkai, and with situational sparring?

OK. So. I arm locked people for a living for twenty years.

I trained bunkai since I was about 17-18 I am now 46.

Zen du kai, Japanese jits, some RSBD, Chun, some karates here and there. All variations on that bunkai theme. Philippino systems do basically bunkai for days.

And as I said it kind of worked.

Then I did MMA and got mauled by guys with nowhere near my technical proficiency. And after a few years of believing that just some guys were meaner or better. I eventually started changing my training to be more timing focused, more concept and more positional. And I started reining in the younger fitter MMA guys.

And I was having more success closing people down in the real world as well.

So the sport literally reflected the street in my case.
 

wab25

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I've just posted two, littered with arm grappling.
You have posted two. You have posted two, where you choose to focus entirely on what the arms are doing. As I pointed out before, there is a lot more going on in connection to those arm movements. The entire body is connected to and driving those arm movements. Sure, you can choose to ignore that part. You can do those kata arm movements without the body, if you want... your choice. But then you are leaving out the most important part.

Look, if you don't like kata, and don't find a use for it.... great. Maybe you should train an art that doesn't use that method. There are plenty of arts that train without kata. There are striking arts, grappling arts and arts containing both... with no kata in them. These may be better for you, so you don't spend so much time picking apart the art you are studying.
 
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You have posted two. You have posted two, where you choose to focus entirely on what the arms are doing. As I pointed out before, there is a lot more going on in connection to those arm movements. The entire body is connected to and driving those arm movements. Sure, you can choose to ignore that part. You can do those kata arm movements without the body, if you want... your choice. But then you are leaving out the most important part.

Look, if you don't like kata, and don't find a use for it.... great. Maybe you should train an art that doesn't use that method. There are plenty of arts that train without kata. There are striking arts, grappling arts and arts containing both... with no kata in them. These may be better for you, so you don't spend so much time picking apart the art you are studying.

I did not say it was only arm movements, I said compared to BJJ and Judo, it's mostly arm movements.
 

wab25

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I did not say it was only arm movements

Quick reminder... this is what you said:
This is primarly arm movement.

once again, arm movements as grappling maneuvers..

I do those kata and find that I use my entire body with those movements. I have tried them as grappling moves against people bigger and stronger than me and have been able to work them.

It may help me, as I come from a jujitsu background, been doing jujitsu for more than twice as long as I have been doing Karate and still train jujitsu. So, maybe I see and understand a few of the details that a straight Karate student wouldn't... or maybe I don't. But, I can say that practicing those kata has improved my jujitsu a lot. I have found use of them to improve my grappling.

Again... why not just train an art that trains the way you want to train? Why train an art, that does things in a way you don't agree with? Your time would be better spent training an art that trains in the way you think is best... then you could spend all this energy trying to better understand and improve you art. Trying to pick apart the art you are studying seems to be a waste of time. First, you won't convince other people training in these arts to change. (we really have heard all your arguments before... and are still training) Second, if you really think this type of training is not great... then why are you wasting your time training this way?
 

Graywalker

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OK. So. I arm locked people for a living for twenty years.

I trained bunkai since I was about 17-18 I am now 46.

Zen du kai, Japanese jits, some RSBD, Chun, some karates here and there. All variations on that bunkai theme. Philippino systems do basically bunkai for days.

And as I said it kind of worked.

Then I did MMA and got mauled by guys with nowhere near my technical proficiency. And after a few years of believing that just some guys were meaner or better. I eventually started changing my training to be more timing focused, more concept and more positional. And I started reining in the younger fitter MMA guys.

And I was having more success closing people down in the real world as well.

So the sport literally reflected the street in my case.
Well hell everything kinda works. With this type of training, I am surprised that you think they don't work. I have sparred several MMA guys and really had no issues with using bunkai on them but that could be due to the yrs and use of them on the streets.

I didn't perfect my skills through sport at all, this must be the difference. I believe I have fought people from just about all types of systems or styles and Karate, bunkai and those things associated with it, helped me survive every encounter...

Escrima, (I learned from my dad in the 6th grade) literally saved me from being stabbed in the heart, albeit I was stabbed in the arm, it was a bunkai technique that deflected the attackers knife towards a survivable area.

It is interesting to hear the various effectiveness of others training.
 

Paul Calugaru

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I cut my teeth on Ashi Barai waza.. I have to fight like hell not to do it. Always taking note of what floor structure when I kumite.

Most of the time NO it's not in play. That said ... Karate's Ashi Barai is super practical.
 

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