Anybody ever heard of shaolin-do???

[7starmantis]

Well fine. I found some clips on my own


http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/clips.htm


You have to download the DivX bundle to view them (or so it says)... I'll look at a few after a while.

jm

I watched the mantis ones and the sparring ones. I dont have the words. I saw nothing in the mantis clips that looked like mantis, let alone CMA. Why are the forms not used in the sparring? I saw nothing from any of the forms used in the sparring clips. Why are they sparring with their hands on thier knees? I dont know what to say. Are these basically highly skilled SD players? Is this accepted SD clips? I'm really speachless and thats not normal for me.

 

[InvisibleFist]

While we're on the subject, the west coasts equivalent is Kung Fu San Soo.

Here's some vids:

http://www.easthillskungfu.com/main.htm

 

[47MartialMan]

I watched the mantis ones and the sparring ones. I dont have the words. I saw nothing in the mantis clips that looked like mantis, let alone CMA. Why are the forms not used in the sparring? I saw nothing from any of the forms used in the sparring clips. Why are they sparring with their hands on thier knees? I dont know what to say. Are these basically highly skilled SD players? Is this accepted SD clips? I'm really speachless and thats not normal for me.

Not all mantis forms and techniques actually capture/imitate the insect.
For instance, there is a move (although a series-the complete series is condodered a move) in Chat Sing Tohng Lohng, called Baahk Yuhn Cheut Duhng....lit-White Ape Exits. It looks like an "ape tactic" in Mantis Style.

There are so many sub-syles, who can state for sure if it is mantis or not?

The mantis and humans are of different structure. Any tactic that is merciless, can be considered mantis.

 

[7starmantis]

Not all mantis forms and techniques actually capture/imitate the insect.
For instance, there is a move (although a series-the complete series is condodered a move) in Chat Sing Tohng Lohng, called Baahk Yuhn Cheut Duhng....lit-White Ape Exits. It looks like an "ape tactic" in Mantis Style.

There are so many sub-syles, who can state for sure if it is mantis or not?

The mantis and humans are of different structure. Any tactic that is merciless, can be considered mantis.

You assume I'm saying that the form didn't look like mantis because it didn't look like the mantis insect? You should really not make such large assumptions. I actually know the form you are talking about and yes, mantis contains much "monkey" footwork, that is very well known.

How many "sub-styles" of mantis do you believe there are? So you are saying that because there is so much in mantis no one can say what is or is not mantis? Thats ridiculous. There are principles and yes, even certain techniques that are in the mantis system that if broken can pretty much exclude something from being from the mantis system. I dont even really understand how you could even truly believe that. If that was correct, anything youdo with your arms or legs would be mantis kung fu.

Its ridiculous to say that anything considered merciless could be considered mantis. I haven't the words to even retort to that. What in the world would make you post something like that? :idunno:

7sm

 

[47MartialMan]

You assume I'm saying that the form didn't look like mantis because it didn't look like the mantis insect? You should really not make such large assumptions.

No. I am saying that everything in a form doesn't have to look like what it impersonates. Face it, the insect has forearms designed by nature way different than humans. Trapping in "human mantis" are very simular in other CMA's.

How many "sub-styles" of mantis do you believe there are? So you are saying that because there is so much in mantis no one can say what is or is not mantis?

No, I am saying that the foundations and traditions of a system get changed as it is "passed down". Their own version or interpretation. However, practitioners/generations of those have a tendancy to "add" or "subtract" info.

If that was correct, anything you do with your arms or legs would be mantis kung fu.

Come on, how many tactics have you seen in other arts that mantis has?

Its ridiculous to say that anything considered merciless could be considered mantis. I haven't the words to even retort to that. What in the world would make you post something like that?

Hmmn,, if one is to imitate the life-form, then the actual life-form is merciless.

 

[clfsean]

Not all mantis forms and techniques actually capture/imitate the insect.
For instance, there is a move (although a series-the complete series is condodered a move) in Chat Sing Tohng Lohng, called Baahk Yuhn Cheut Duhng....lit-White Ape Exits. It looks like an "ape tactic" in Mantis Style.

Because all Northern Mantis systems rely/base/build/reference/use the 12 keyword formula. SD does not.

There are so many sub-syles, who can state for sure if it is mantis or not?

I can... been there, done that. They are superficial motions with an incomplete understanding of mantis. Sure it hurts to get hit by them, but it's not mantis just because they use gou sau or tong long dil sau or stand in chat sing ma. Of this I state with authority of having been in the organization & been through their version of mantis. Let it go...

The mantis and humans are of different structure. Any tactic that is merciless, can be considered mantis.

Nope... the bug is doing it to eat. Humans do it for fun.

 

[47MartialMan]

Because all Northern Mantis systems rely/base/build/reference/use the 12 keyword formula. SD does not

So mantis cannot be use for SD and some of those do not look like other arts?

I can... been there, done that. They are superficial motions with an incomplete understanding of mantis. Sure it hurts to get hit by them, but it's not mantis just because they use gou sau or tong long dil sau or stand in chat sing ma. Of this I state with authority of having been in the organization & been through their version of mantis.

Not trying to sound sarcastic, but the org you are with is the only/authentic/"true" authority?

Nope... the bug is doing it to eat. Humans do it for fun.

So mantis methods are not devastating-they're fun? Humans do not study it to learn to better fight/defend-it must be like dancing.

 

[7starmantis]

So mantis cannot be use for SD and some of those do not look like other arts?

Sometimes I dont even understand your posts. Yes, SD could use a mantis form, but its not mantis if it doesn't follow the core principles of the mantis system.

So mantis methods are not devastating-they're fun? Humans do not study it to learn to better fight/defend-it must be like dancing.

I think what your missing is that devistating is not the determining factor on what is or is not from the mantis system.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

No. I am saying that everything in a form doesn't have to look like what it impersonates. Face it, the insect has forearms designed by nature way different than humans. Trapping in "human mantis" are very simular in other CMA's.

You just pulled that out of the blue. No one said that everything in a form must look like what it impersonates. Its obvious your limited knowledge and understanding of the mantis system, because the forearms are not used to trap all that much in mantis. Trapping is also not a defining quality of the mantis system. Your taking one technique and resting an entire system on it, thats incorrect.

No, I am saying that the foundations and traditions of a system get changed as it is "passed down". Their own version or interpretation. However, practitioners/generations of those have a tendancy to "add" or "subtract" info.

First, would you mind answering the question about how many "sub-styles" you believe there to be?

Thats absurd! The foundations of a system get changed as it is "passed down"? Thats ridiculous, that wouldn't be the same system anymore. In which case, it wouldn't be mantis. If you change the principles, foundations, add or subtract "info", you are not practicing mantis anymore. You have this viewpoint that nothing is absolute and that anything could be everything, but its just not so. There are determining guidlines to practicing a certain style, and if broken, you are not practicing the style correctly.

Come on, how many tactics have you seen in other arts that mantis has?

I'm not sure what your asking? Tactics? Most CMA share "tactics" as I would define the word to be, but I'm unsure about what your asking. There are many shared techniques and even principles from CMA style to style, but there are also non shared ones as well. What is your point?

Hmmn,, if one is to imitate the life-form, then the actual life-form is merciless.

What? :idunno: The "life-form" being the insect? What are you saying? Your posting very unclearly. Mantis kung fu isn't imitating an insect, thats incorrect. I guess with that argument, humans breathe, so to breathe means you are a human? Most living creatures breathe, human or not.

7sm

 

[47MartialMan]

You just pulled that out of the blue. No one said that everything in a form must look like what it impersonates. Its obvious your limited knowledge and understanding of the mantis system, because the forearms are not used to trap all that much in mantis. Trapping is also not a defining quality of the mantis system. Your taking one technique and resting an entire system on it, thats incorrect.
I did say they were, in fact I am saying that can be like each other. No, I am taking one tactic and riding the rest. it wads an example.

First, would you mind answering the question about how many "sub-styles" you believe there to be?
Webrowsing.....everyone seems to have it. They seem different. This is almost the same issue/analogy with those websites claiming "Authentic Shaoin Kung Fu".

Thats absurd! The foundations of a system get changed as it is "passed down"? Thats ridiculous, that wouldn't be the same system anymore. In which case, it wouldn't be mantis. If you change the principles, foundations, add or subtract "info", you are not practicing mantis anymore. You have this viewpoint that nothing is absolute and that anything could be everything, but its just not so. There are determining guidlines to practicing a certain style, and if broken, you are not practicing the style correctly.
My point exactly per my above response. Why can things change in a system as generation pass? Anyhing could be everything-no Anything could be misused or named as something else causing confusion.

I'm not sure what your asking? Tactics? Most CMA share "tactics" as I would define the word to be, but I'm unsure about what your asking. There are many shared techniques and even principles from CMA style to style, but there are also non shared ones as well. What is your point?
How can someone actually know that theirs is the real deal in comparison to another (CMA or other Mantis) when some of the tactic are the same? In other words, how can a total begiiner or person just coming in, find out those differences?

What? :idunno: The "life-form" being the insect? What are you saying? Your posting very unclearly. Mantis kung fu isn't imitating an insect, thats incorrect. I guess with that argument, humans breathe, so to breathe means you are a human? Most living creatures breathe, human or not.
Gee, I sense that you maybe either don't understand what I am saying, or just want to get in a uproar about it. How about this-do you have a lineage/link to the Mantis system that you study and let me read from there? "Its ALL good" (OK-no hard feelings-no intentional insult)

 

[clfsean]

So mantis cannot be use for SD and some of those do not look like other arts?

It was said by 7* & re-iterate... if the defining principles are left out, then it's a shell of a form & not true mantis or anything else.

Not trying to sound sarcastic, but the org you are with is the only/authentic/"true" authority?

Well you are being hardheaded because you're not paying attention to the information being given you & you come back with nonsense replies. One more time... I'm ex-SD. I've done their Mantis training. It's not Mantis. I've seen, done, spoken with, watched & trained with other Mantis people since I've left & I can say categorically, it's not Mantis. They may use stances & hand positions, but the core is left out, hence... one last time... it's not Mantis.

So mantis methods are not devastating-they're fun? Humans do not study it to learn to better fight/defend-it must be like dancing.

Yeah they're fun. They're also only truely worthwhile if they're understood properly & applied correctly.

So exactly... what is it you study & how long?

 

[7starmantis]

I did say they were, in fact I am saying that can be like each other. No, I am taking one tactic and riding the rest. it wads an example.

:idunno: You either need to spend a little time proof reading your posts before submitting it, or your just making up nonsense one line posts. Your not listening to our posts, you just continue to post nonsense and repost your own agendas.

Webrowsing.....everyone seems to have it. They seem different. This is almost the same issue/analogy with those websites claiming "Authentic Shaoin Kung Fu".

Again, what is this? This is not an answer by any stretch of the imagination. You can refrence another thread, but your still not making a rational argument. The styles of mantis or any system for that matter are different to a degree, but they are also similar to a large degree. Would you please just answer the question?

My point exactly per my above response. Why can things change in a system as generation pass? Anyhing could be everything-no Anything could be misused or named as something else causing confusion.

Now your contradicting yourself. This is starting to look like your doing this on purpose. There is no confusion if you understand the core principles. Looking at something claiming to be mantis, you can tell very quickly if its true by the usage or non-usage of core principles.

How can someone actually know that theirs is the real deal in comparison to another (CMA or other Mantis) when some of the tactic are the same? In other words, how can a total begiiner or person just coming in, find out those differences?

Oh come on! You can't be serious. This is starting to look trollish. Because systems share tactics its impossible to know what you study from something else? Your just posting nonsense.

A beginner must spend time training, studying, and watching the skill of thier teachers. Its true that a complete beginner to Martial Arts might not know that what we saw on the videos is poor quality and not really true mantis. Thats why I have a problem with the school promoting it as such. Your need to stay on topic here though, your bouncing all over the place. The discussion about how can beginners know what is real before studying it is another thread altogether.

Gee, I sense that you maybe either don't understand what I am saying, or just want to get in a uproar about it. How about this-do you have a lineage/link to the Mantis system that you study and let me read from there? "Its ALL good" (OK-no hard feelings-no intentional insult)

Well, I can tell you I really truly dont understand most of what you post. What in the world does my lineage have to do with the discussion at hand? You posted this....

Hmmn,, if one is to imitate the life-form, then the actual life-form is merciless.

Thats just a nonsensical random babling. Your answer to it is to read my lineage? This is getting ridiculous. If your unable to stay on topic or post coherant thoughts which add to the discussion, you may want to refrain from posting.

7sm

 

[InvisibleFist]

I'm a little confused at this point.

Are we agreed that the form is in fact a mantis form, just done without the core concepts?

If so, I'm reluctant to say that they are not "doing" mantis.

As I said before their tiger crane IS tiger crane, its just BAD tiger crane.

I have no problem if people want to say that Shaolin Do do improperly formed Kung fu, but I think its hard to argue that what they are doing is NOT kung fu.

 

[j_m]

I have no problem if people want to say that Shaolin Do do improperly formed Kung fu, but I think its hard to argue that what they are doing is NOT kung fu.

You make it sound like there is a difference.


This forum has become quite tedious



jm

 

[tshadowchaser]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Please, return to the original topic





Tshadowchaser

Sheldon Bedell

 

[7starmantis]

Are we agreed that the form is in fact a mantis form, just done without the core concepts?

Its no mantis form I've ever seen.

I agree with j_m, whats the difference?

7sm

 

[47MartialMan]

Well you are being hardheaded because you're not paying attention to the information being given you & you come back with nonsense replies. One more time... I'm ex-SD. I've done their Mantis training. It's not Mantis. I've seen, done, spoken with, watched & trained with other Mantis people since I've left & I can say categorically, it's not Mantis. They may use stances & hand positions, but the core is left out, hence... one last time... it's not Mantis.
What did you meant by the core is left out?



If they call it mantis, can it be "their" style of mantis?

So are we in agreement that their forms are watered/trickled, or perhaps totally created by scratch, having little or none of the actual methods or series of other/mantis-etc., methods/forms?

Perhaps that they might be a new sub-style that have less in comparison with others of straighter lineage, (This is why the request of lineage comes in). because their lineage is vague. Do we agree upon this?

Are they considered a McDojo franchise?

And, do they have a lesser degree of teaching because they created a sub-style on their own?

 

[clfsean]

Well you are being hardheaded because you're not paying attention to the information being given you & you come back with nonsense replies. One more time... I'm ex-SD. I've done their Mantis training. It's not Mantis. I've seen, done, spoken with, watched & trained with other Mantis people since I've left & I can say categorically, it's not Mantis. They may use stances & hand positions, but the core is left out, hence... one last time... it's not Mantis.
What did you meant by the core is left out?

I'm not repeating myself again. Please read my previous posts.

If they call it mantis, can it be "their" style of mantis?

Yes but erroniously...

So are we in agreement that their forms are watered/trickled, or perhaps totally created by scratch, having little or none of the actual methods or series of other/mantis-etc., methods/forms?

In part only. You can't be something without training the heart & essence of a thing. Otherwise it's empty... It'd be like buying a house to find the interior framework missing... not good.

Perhaps that they might be a new sub-style that have less in comparison with others of straighter lineage, (This is why the request of lineage comes in). because their lineage is vague. Do we agree upon this?

Their lineage isn't vague. They have a clear lineage of where they come from. Their claims of skills are vague & questionable at best. They do not claim a sub-style. They claim a fountain head. Nope... no agreement.

Are they considered a McDojo franchise?

By some yes, others no.

And, do they have a lesser degree of teaching because they created a sub-style on their own?

They didn't create it because it can't be proven they did. It can be speculated at best they did, but there's no proof & they do teach several mainstream sets. The teaching skills of those who teach are fine, however with the essence of a thing missing, they are teaching an incomplete thing.

I believe I asked you earlier about your training... you haven't responded.

 

[47MartialMan]

I mean think about all the many seemingly "different Mantis Kung Fu:

First there is two classicfications:
Northern/Southern

Then there are many names/styles:
Seven Star
8 Steps
Jook Lum
Chow Gar
Wah Lum
Ah-Nan
Chi Gar
Iron Ox
Chu Gar

....are there any more?

Next, how can something still be the "core" being passed many generations with many styles, with many practitioners? What is meant by "core"?

If a lineage isnt vague and thus methods/form are a part of that lineage, surely they have a "core" (Depenong on what is meant by "core")

I mean, how can one state. in essence of any Kung Fu (Tiger, Crane, etc.), that there is only one, with one "way or the highway"?

 

[7starmantis]

Nice google skills

First, Southern mantis and northern mantis are not really realted. Your talking about two different systems. However, the northern systems, even the many different "styles" still all follow the 12 keyword formula, they still have a core set of principles which they all follow that make them "mantis". If these core principles are not followed, or the 12 keyword formula is not known or followed, it makes it not really correct, or true mantis.

You dont seem to be listening to any of us, you just keep repeating the same questions. There are principels which define CMA and each style of CMA. If these principles are ignored, its not considered CMA anymore.

You have been asked a few questions which you are ignoring. Do you plan on answering them?

7sm